Questions on download ov VS9 and troubles burning DVDs

[rluetmer]

Hi all - I have tried to find my answers by using the tutorial and scanning other threads - hope these are not a repeat questions -
1) I started with Version 7 which came bundled with the firewire card I bought – made a video using editing, effects, etc and created a video file using “same as project settings” but could not burn a DVD, so I downloaded the trial version of 9.0. I burned the DVD on 9.0, but the image was quite blurry compared to plugging my camcorder directly to a TV. I then went ahead and purchased V9 online at your mall. I made a short clip using the main edit feature - capturing video per the instructions in the tutorial, which suggested setting the capture mode as MPEG. This produced a very pixalized picture, especially with moving objects. The information field while downloading indicated MPEG-1; constant bit rate; 1800Kbps, as the video format - the tutorial said the program converted DV to MPEG-2 - is this the problem? The installed Codecs show Dolby Digital and MPEG-2 and the status on both is Full. When I record in DV format, it produces a better picture, however, don't I eventually have to convert it to MPEG format?

2. Another issue: I started to download all the smart downloads. I left it run and after 2 hours it was not quite half done. A little over an hour after that, I checked back on the computer and it had stopped downloading, but I don’t think they took effect. If I go into the smart download option now, it doesn't show anything, however– how do I tell if I have everthing? I also downloaded the bonus pack of DVD menus that was the promotion if I bought the program before November, 30, but I don't think that gave me anything either. For example, the tutorial shows more DVD menu formats than I have. Also, when I go into the direct DV to DVD wizard, the only theme format it gives me is the Christmas one and I don't have the option not have a template - so the only way I can cut a DVD using the DV to DVD option is to have the annoying Christmas theme in the DVD.

3. Speaking of the DV to DVD wizard... I can get as far as starting the burn, however, midway throught the process I get the following error message: "The program you are trying to run requires a current Indeo codec.
To obtain a current driver that is compatible with this version of Windows, please contact the manufacturer at http://indeo.ligos.com." I went to the Indeo site and it looks like htey charge $15 for this thing whatever it is. How come I can burn a DVD in the main edit program and not in the DV to DVD wizard? Do I need to buy this Indeo thing for $15?

[Ken Berry]

Not sure which tutorial you mean -- the Ulead ones? If so, then you need to be aware that Ulead often suggests its program can do things in certain ways which a lot of us here have learned the hard way can cause problems. That is why there is a sticky message at the top of this Board which contains some handy hints on the Recommended Procedure.

1) First of all, if you are dealing with a digital video camera, we recommend you capture first to DV format via Firewire. In 99% of cases, if you use USB, you will at best get low quality, webcam video. But of course you will need to have a Firewire port on your computer and buy a Firewire cable for the connection with your camera (usually a 4 pin to 6 pin cable). Anyway, you capture in DV format, edit in DV format, then Share > Create Video File > DVD, which will then produce a DVD-compatible mpeg-2 file. You then can burn that by going Share > Create Disc > DVD and inserting the mpeg-2 (and any other DVD-compatible mpeg-2s produce in a similar way, in the burning module).

If your computer is powerful enough, though, capturing direct to mpeg is certainly possible, though the wide (though not universal) consensus is that mpeg is not really a format you can or should edit much. But if your intention is to produce a DVD, then you should be capturing in DVD-compatible mpeg-2, not low quality mpeg-1 (which at best can only be about VHS standard). When you connect your camera and open Video Studio, you select DVD as the format in which you want to capture, and make sure it is set to Lower Field First as Video Studio seems to have Frame Based set as the default.

2) I don't really know much about Smart Downloads as I have the boxed version of VS 9 and so didn't need to smart download anything. However, there are almost literally hundreds of posts on this board about problems with the process. Do a Search using 'smart downloads' as the target words and you will see lots of possibilities.

3) My only comments about the DV to DVD Wizard is that most of us here simply ignore it as it is too limiting, not only because of the Christmas template. But the thing about the Indeo codec is strange as I thought it was indeed included in the program as your experience when not using the wizard seems to suggest. Can you check to see what codecs are actually installed on your computer?

[DVDDoug]

I'll try to help with some of the issues...

I assume that you have a digital camcorder. In that case, you should be able to transfer the video in its native format, presumably AVI/DV. (1800kbps is way too low for good quality, and DVDs are MPEG-2.)

It should be converted to MPEG-2 after all editing is done. You can allow Video Studio to perform the MPEG rendering at the Create DVD step.

I'm not sure what's going on with the Indio codec, but you shouldn't have to purchase any additional codecs to go from AVI/DV to DVD/MPEG-2. I doubt that purchasing the codec will solve your problem.

Most problems with DVD burning seem to be caused by conflicts with Roxio or Nero. I'm not sure how to get-around this with Video Studio. (With Movie Factory and DVD Workshop, you can "burn" the DVD folders to your hard drive instead of the DVD, and then use your regular burning software to copy to the actual DVD.)

[rluetmer]

Ken and Doug - thanks for taking the time to reply to my post. I did not realize how quickly you would respond... This is the first time I have ever participated in an online web board/chat room/blog or any other similar venue. It is very generous of you to help out a total stranger like this!
After posting my questions, I unhooded from the internet to continue to play around with VS9. I ended up figuring out the download thing on my own - stupid oversight - they had all downloaded, I had just not gone into the folder to run the executibles.... I still don't know what it up with the Christmas template on the DV to DVD wizard, but I think I'll take your lead, Ken and scrap it as an option. The edit feature has the DV Quick Scan which really hits on the feature about the DV to DVD wizard that I found appealing and since it appears as though I can burn DVDs in the main edit program without the Indio problem, that solves that issue.
I do have a digital camcorder and I bought a firewire card for my laptop and ended up capturing video in DV/AVI format. I then made a very basic DVD clipping some scenes, adding transitions, and burned a DVD. The clips as I was editing showed up as .avi files. When I burned the DVD, all I did was select my VSP that I had just created, which I understand is not a movie file, but is simply a file that links the .avi files, transitions, and all the other stuff created while editing. So I did not create a video file. My thought was that I would burn .avi files to the DVD so the DVD could act as an achive going forward. I guess I want to create two types of DVDs. One for "productions" and one for archiving since I heard there is a limited life span on tape media. (I have 4 small kids so my thought is I'll make some productions, but save creating DVDs for sometime in the future when the kids are out of the house and use my time now to actually play with the kids and take and archive great footage) However, after reading your reply, you said DVD is MPEG-2 and that you don't recommend editing in MPEG format, so that blows my theory of using DVDs as backup for my precious footage. When I took the DVD I made last night and loaded it up, I noticed those file have .BUP; .VOB; and .IFO extensions, whatever they are and when I used the capture option on VS9 to capture from DVD, they came back into the program (no surprise to me now) as MPG files. So what is the best way to archive footage for future editing?

Thanks again for your words of wisdom - - I've been at this whole video-editing business now for only a few days, and I can see how a guy can get hooked! I would imagine some of you out there have PCs dedicated to video production. Does anybody have a recommendation for the best setup? I have an IBM thinkpad R40 running Windows XP Professional with a Pentium M chip; 1400MHz; 587 MHz; 512 MB of RAM and a 34GB NTFS HD w/ 12 MB free. This is my work computer and I am thinking not the best one to use, but I may use it for making small productions when I travel for business and get bored in my hotel room - I also have a destop at home: Compac EVO; Windows XP Professional, Pentium 4 CPU 2.4 GHz; 2.93 GHz; 248 MB of RAM 37 GB NTFS HD with approx 25 GB available. The Compac is primarily used by my 4 year old to play online kids games on NickJR's website. I am not sure on how upgradable the Compac is, but would it be worth just beefing that one up a bit? Add RAM - maybe another HD - I was reading the VS9 material and it talked about having special settings for a dedicated HD for video editing. If I can upgrade the Compac with a 2nd HD - that might be sufficient compared to buying another PC? The Compac is less than 2 years old...

[Ken Berry]

Just a couple of quick comments.

RE the DV format using (or reverting to) the .avi extension -- 'DV' is a compressed, but lossless, form of .AVI designed by Microsoft to exactly emulate the quality of digital video filmed by a mini-DV digitial video camera. 'Capturing' in that format is really no more than actually transferring it, pixel for pixel, to your computer in real time and with no loss of quality. As such, it places no stress on your computer. Capturing in some other format, including mpeg-2/DVD, makes the computer work hard to convert the digital signal on the fly to the different format. Not all computers are up to the job. But there is a price to pay in capturing to DV format -- and this is relevant to your question about archiving too -- and that is the file size. DV format produces large files: around 13GB per hour. Fully uncompressed .AVI, however, is five times larger i.e. around 65 GB per hour. Mpeg-2, on the other hand is only a fraction the size of DV, so it is obviously more attractive to those, like you, who presently have small hard disks on their computers.

A note of caution: reflecting a very broad range of experience and backgrounds on this Board, we generally recommend against doing what you have done and burning direct from the project to the disc and jumping the Share > Create Video File stage. It is of course theoretically possible, and in practice may work for some of the people some of the time (as it did for you apparently in this case), but it seems to cause a lot more people a lot more problems a lot more of the time. Just be aware that as your projects become more complex, with more editing, more transitions, more titles, more added audio, you will be placing enormous pressure on your relatively under-resourced computers (the Thinkpad mainly because of the CPU and the Compaq because of RAM, and to an extent both because of HDD space) to ask it to convert all this on the fly, as well as do the multiplexing and other processes necessary to burn a DVD, all at the same time. A lot of computers simply give up the ghost and we get a lot of people coming to this Board complaining that there is something wrong with the program when it is really their (lack of) computer resources and the demands they themselves have placed on those resources! (Sorry to rant a bit here... but it does get a bit galling sometimes to deal with the often unrealistic expectations people bring to a complex process such as video editing.) Doing it in two stages -- first producing a DVD-compatible mpeg-2 (Share > Create Video File > DVD) and then burning that file to disc (Share > Create Disc) places far less stress on your computer and overall takes about the same time anyway...

As for archiving, as I have already said, size matters. As already noted, it would take more than 3 single layer DVDs to archive 1 hour of captured DV format video. On the other hand, you will get one hour of top quality mpeg-2 (8000 kbps) on one DVD, or 1.5 hours at good quality (6000 kbps) or 2 hours of average quality (4000 kbps)... The choice is yours, I am afraid -- horses for courses...

Finally, as to your computers: you will quickly learn that you will need simply tons of hard disk space, particularly if you start capturing large amounts in DV format. Fortunately, you can these days buy large hard disks for relatively low prices. You don't say what connections you have on your Compaq, but -- apart from the question of portability of your Thinkpad -- the Compaq is potentially much better for video editing than the IBM. But you should at least double the RAM on it (again cheap these days and easy to do yourself). It should also have space to allow the addition of at least one much larger internal HDD. But depending on the ports you have on it, an external HDD is another possibility. Firewire would be the most obvious, but it would require you to have a Firewire card on the Compaq. I would have to add -- from personal experience -- that Firewire external enclosures have also been known to have some write caching problems, but otherwise do an excellent job. The alternative would be a USB external case, but you would need USB 2.0 for video speeds, and I am pretty sure your Thinkpad would not have that. Not sure about the Compaq as it may be from the twilight period around the time of the introduction of USB when the more high-powered models got it, but the less expensive models got the old USB 1.0.

[rluetmer]

Ken - thanks again for the well thought out and succinct answers to my questions! This is great! So based on your advice, here is my plan - I am going to add as much HD as I can to my desktop Compac. I did purchase a firewire card for capturing video on my MiniDV that has three firewire ports on it. When I was installing it, I was wondering if I'd ever use the other two ports. Now I know why there are multiple ports - to hook up an external HD, which may be necessary if there is not room for a massive internal HD. I am also going to max out my RAM on this thing. I am thinking the upgrades will be cheaper than starting from scratch.
From a capturing perspective, I will always capture in DV. Your answer also explained a question I had that I didn't ask, which was, why when I choose "DV" for a capture format, it puts in AVI. I assumed they meant exactly the same thing, which left me wondering why they had both options (along with DVD, MPEG, etc.) Based on your answer, I assume that when I pick DV, I am capturing in the compressed form of .AVI. If you pick AVI, you are capturing in fully uncompressed .AVI and burning disk space unecessarily. At any rate, I am going to capture in DV exclusively from now on, build my project, create a video file converting the DV AVI to MPEG-2 and THEN burn my disk. This will provide sufficient backup for my footage as I will be able to pull the MPEG-2 files from the disks in the future and re-edit footage if I want without losing quality, right?

OK, onto my current question, if I may ask for one more bit of advice. I am trying to convert all my old analog video from my old Sony High 8 camcorder. I purchased a Flyvideo TV Tuner card as recommended to me by a friend. I installed the card in my desktop Compac and video is coming across OK with varying quality and dropouts that I am attributing to the limitations of my PC. (I feel your pain when you talk about people posting stuff here complaining about the program when the root of the problem is usually something else...I used to sell medical software applications and users of the application would frequently rip the software rather than look at their own processes!) At any rate, here are the settings I am using:
I am capturing using DVD format because I understand the video card converts analog to MPEG-2, so based on your explanation of DV capturing, the software and system is not having to convert anything in the capture process because the video card is doing that, therefore the DVD format is going to be the least taxing on the system and produce the best results. I end up with video files with the following properties:
File format: NTSC DVD
Video Type: MPEG-2 Video; Upper Field First
Attributes: 24 bits, 720x480; 4:3
Frame Rate: 29.970 frames/second
Data Rate: Variable Bit Rate Max 8000 Kbps.
Audio Type: LPCM Audio
Attributes: 48000 Hz, 16 bit, Stereo.

OK, the problem is with the audio. When I capture, I get anywhere between 30 and 90 seconds before the audit cuts out all together. If I click on the capture options menu, the sound comes back, then I start the capture again, get another small clip, then the sound cuts out... I tried every possible combinations of settings working under the theory that even a room full of monkeys randomly typing on keyboards will eventually write the Bible, however, after exhausting all the combinations, I don't know what to do. I've searched this web board extensively without finding anyone else with the same problem. I used the Ulead help, which even shows pictures of how to hook up an analog camera to a PC. The Ulead help shows a picture of an S-video cable going from the camera to the tv tuner card, and a cable with two rca jacks (audio R and L) coming from the camera to a single jack going into the audio in jack on the computer (not the tv tuner card). I hooked it up this way, and it'll give me audio off my Sony camcorder forever, but VS9 does not capture the audio. If I plug the audio cable into the tv-tuner card, I can capture the audio, but only for the 30-90 second time frame before it cuts out and I have to begin a new clip to get the sound back. Here is what I have for the Capture Options:
Capture audio, Capture to Library, Force to use preview mode, and Display Source Volume Panel are all checked.
Here is what I have for my Video and Audio Capture Property Setttings:
Source Tab: Video:
Input Source: Video S-Video
TV System: NTSC
Audio:
Audio Device: SoundMAX Digital Audio (the only available option)
Input Source: Line-In (I've also tried all the others - Auxiliary and Wave out mix work as well, but still only give me 30 to 90 seconds)
I have the "Use PCI Audio" box checked and the other box unchecked.
I made no changes to the Sound tab;
Under the capture tab:
Capture: DVD is marked (720x480) and I slid the bar all the way to 100% for quality. Under the Advanced tab, I tried MPEG audio, LPCM audio and Dolby Digital Audio as well....

Well, there you have it - I hope this is something you've run across....

THANKS!

[maddrummer3301]

If it helps,

The Indeo Codec is on the VS9 installation CD and also on the
Splash Installation Screen when you first install the program from CD.

The Indeo codec is needed to view the icon clips in the library.
(And any files using that codec of course).

Good Luck,

MD

[Ken Berry]

Ron: re your upgrade proposals. As I say, the Compaq is your best bet, but don't go too overboard with RAM -- though in any case, depending on your Motherboard, you could probably only fit a maximum of between 1.5 and 2 GB. But 1 GB should be more than enough. Re the IBM, you can of course buy large internal hard drives for a laptop, but over 60 GB they tend to become more expensive. So the external HDD, which can be shared between the two computers, if you put a Firewire port on the Compaq, is probably the way to go. Re the Firewire card (was it a PCMCIA card?), 4 ports is probably overkill. Most Firewire devices, and certainly all external Firewire HDD cases I have seen, have two Firewire ports on them, and you can piggy back other Firewire devices/drives through those.

Re your proposed digital work flow, no problems. Re the analogue work flow: no problems, though a small note of correction. Unless your TV card is really special and the manual says otherwise, I doubt whether it includes a hardware encoder. These tend to come only with the much more expensive external capture devices (e.g. Canopus). That is to say, the encoding on capture in your case will still be done by your computer. To put a gloss on your own words, you will be capturing in mpeg-2 perhaps because that is the only feasible format (as the .avi alternative on most TV cards is usually the huge, uncompressed variety) -- NOT because it is easy on the computer. My earlier comments about mpeg-2 capture and encoding continue to apply here. So with your computers the way they are, the Compaq remains the better bet. In either case, though, you will need to ensure, while capturing direct to mpeg-2, that the computers are not running other programs, including usually virus scans in the background. This will ensure you have as much of the computer resources as possible. As for the properties you outline, see my final comment below.

Re the audio problem, I confess I am stumped. I have a Winfast DV 2000 TV card myself, and use the audio-In on the card and it works fine with analogue captures. I have another external analogue capture box and it uses Line-In for audio, and that too works fine. It could of course be a hardware problem with your TV card itself. Have you tried capturing any TV programs with it? Does the audio work continuously with that?

Another possibility is that pushing the quality slider to 100% was just another bridge too far for already fairly stretched computer resources. Personally, I never touch the quality slider but leave it at the default, which I think is 70 or 80%. Opinions vary on the value of the slider anyway. The default is supposed to represent the best balance between the quality of the video and the time it takes to process it. Putting it to 100% means you are asking the computer to work that much harder and longer for what in the end is unlikely to be any significant improvement in quality which is perceptible to the naked eye. You have to remember that you are capturing Hi8 analogue video. At very best, you are never going to get a DVD using analogue input which can be rated any better than 'Good' -- never 'Best' or on a par with high quality video from a digital source. Can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear, as the old saying goes. So leave the quality slider alone and see if that does anything to improve the audio problem.

This also raises another matter: since you are capturing from an analogue source, you probably never need to use a bitrate higher than 6000 kbps. Many people would only use 4000 kbps and still get much the same results i.e. no major differences in quality which are noticeable to the naked eye. 8000 kbps is most definitely overkill for analogue material and simply uses up, in your case, very valuable hard disk space!!!

[rluetmer]

Ken, you're amazing - thanks for all your time in responding to my post. - Very generous of you - wish I could buy you a beer or something but a I am in the US and it'd be a bit far to travel down under to say thanks... At any rate, thanks - you've saved me a ton of time in getting me started down the right road here -

Regarding your questions - I have a PCMCIA card for my laptop (with 2 firewire jacks) and a card or whatever you call it that I actually installed on my desktop - that's the one with 3 firewire jacks. The external hard drive that I can share between my desktop and laptop is an excellent idea. An obvious solution staring me in the face that I probably would not have thought of.

I am sure you are right about my TV card - the computer is doing the work. I had not thought to try tuning in TV to check the audio on that - should help narrow down the problem - maybe it is just a bad card. I almost hope that's the case so I don't go nuts trying to figure out what I am not doing right - it just seems weird that it works for a while, then gives out. I'll try altering my settings like you suggested to see if that fixes anything. Also, I won't look at replacing the card until I do my RAM upgrade. I need to figure out how to shut down all the processes on a PC that are not necessary too to make sure the capture process is getting my PC's full attention.

Thanks again for all of your help!
Ron