Still More Out of Sync Questions - Please

[Manzano808]

I have VS9 and hitting the out of synch bug, but my problem seems to be the flip side of what I've seen here. The sound is following the video by a large gap (1 1/2 to 2 1/2 seconds). Has anyone else had this same issue, if so any resolution?

I'm pretty much a "newbie" with this technology myself, but i can tell you where i've seen this before and how to remedy (that is if you have the same problem). I have seen this where the video card actually couldn't keep up with the system. I have also seen this with onboard video with cheap motherboards. In the case of the card, when it was upgraded, problem went away. Again, not sure if this is your problem. If not, you should post more info and search around first. In my own case, I spent HOURS searching this board, the web and other forums before I let loose to reveal my lack of knowledge here.

The people on this forum have a TON of knowledge and are fantastic!!

[Manzano808]

ideally both properties should be the same.
The settings immediately above are the ones you would normally use to capture. Your capture settings from the Ati device seem to be a variation.

Change your project settings to match the video clip settings.
After editing and removing the commercials, Share create video file –Same as First Video Clip
This will make a second Dvd-Mpeg 2 file using the clip properties as a template..

Then from a new project, Share Create Disc, make sure the Project Properties match the Video Clip Properties. Add the video file made above
You should then burn without any further render.

Does that improve things?Trevor

Well, I did all what you suggested except i forgot to choose "Same as First Video Clip" - guess i picked "Same as Project..." But here is what happened:

This time VS did something different. After changing the Project Settings like you said, a box came up asking me if i wanted to automatically change settings to match the file? Seems the sound file was 44100 HZ, and settings were higher so it matched those also (I didn't know how to change that manually) so it seemed like I was off to a good start here. Anyway this second attempt was much better but still out of sync EVER SO SLIGHTLY as the disc played. . But at least it's improving. You have to really look close as it's just slightly off.

Thanks! I will follow instructions better on next try.

I still would like to know the settings for conversion if possible:

After choosing "Batch Convert":
Frame type & size (in General tab) Default is Frame-based / 320x240 ?
Compression, Audio, (Avi tab) Default is Custom / PCM ?
and the Advanced settings (Avi tab) Default is Custom with no boxes checked. ? (seems like I would choose the DV there?)

[Manzano808]

I don't know why i'm even wasting my time trying to edit this avi file when it is WAY MORE OUT OF SYNC than the mpeg file it was created from!! I never checked it. As I was editing, i noticed this but I thought that it might be some kind of 'bug' in VS. The OOS problems begin even before clip reaches the half-way point. The original mpeg is fine all the way through!!

I tried chopping it up and a bunch of other things. Maybe I should convert it by the Batch Convert method instead of creating the file?

Perhaps my problem was using the ATI MMC for capture in the 1st place. I guess I'll have to stick to editing this mpeg and take what comes.

[Trevor Andrew]

Hi
There are two ways that I know of to convert your video from one format to another, there may be others.

1 / Use batch convert (Tools—Batch Convert)
2/ Share----Create Video File

Normally when you convert a video it will be from Avi to Mpeg2. This process is required to create a video file compatible for burning.
You are intending to convert from Mpeg to Avi.
I do not think this will improve your video quality.

I have run a few tests for AVI, and am unable to select a frame size of 704x480, 4:3 which your video file contains.

Converting the file to another frame size ie 720 x 480 is possible but I do not think it will improve your quality or oos.

In an earlier post I suggested to select "Same as First Video Clip", this was to make sure you kept the same frame size. 704 X 480.
If you right click the video in the timeline and select properties you will see what you have converted to.

I would suggest that you start a new project capturing your video again using a standard template.

If you capture to Mpeg choose DVD as the Format.
You can change the capture properties by selecting ‘Options—Video and Audio Property Settings.

If you capture to AVI you should change the settings again in order to ‘Use Software Compression’, without your file will be about 65 GB per hour.
Selecting Microsoft Video 1 will give you about 13 Gb per hour.

I am in Pal country but assume that the templates used by VS are the same.

Hope this Helps

Trevor

[Manzano808]

If you capture to Mpeg choose DVD as the Format.
You can change the capture properties by selecting ‘Options—Video and Audio Property Settings.

If you capture to AVI you should change the settings again in order to ‘Use Software Compression’, without your file will be about 65 GB per hour.
Selecting Microsoft Video 1 will give you about 13 Gb per hour.

Thanks for the tip on capture setting for Mpeg and Avi, I'll try the Video 1 for Avi, however, I was able to make it work via Mpeg! I'll update this thread.

[Manzano808]

SUCCESS!!

Ok, I followed your instructions on choosing "Same as First video clip..." and I made separate files for each episode after editing. I also followed your directions on starting a new Project and burned as you said.

PERFECTO!!!!! Much faster rendering as well

Thanks to all for the wonderful help you've given me. I was getting ready to sell my soul and get Premire and a million GB drive. (I don't use XP however)

The down side was finding a 50 pack of DVD-R Memorex for only $14.99 @ Best Buy that were supposed to be 16x but burned more like 4x even after a firmware upgrade on drive. Must be cheapos. Watch out for those "deals" @ Best Buy!!

Thanks again for all the help!

[Ken Berry]

Re your final comment about burning speeds, be very careful anyway, regardless of the brand of discs you use. Even though I have DVD blanks rated at 8x or 12x, I never burn at more than 4x anyway, even with these discs. It might take a few more minutes but I find it worth it in the end. A rule of thumb seems to be: the lower the burning speed, the higher the quality of the final disc. A lower speed seems to give the burning laser more time to firmly embed the signal into the track of the disc. Higher speeds, I have also found by the hard experience of a number of drink coasters, also tend to increase the likelihood of 'laser tracking' error messages from the Ulead or Nero burning engines.

[Manzano808]

Re your final comment about burning speeds, be very careful anyway, regardless of the brand of discs you use. Even though I have DVD blanks rated at 8x or 12x, I never burn at more than 4x anyway, even with these discs.

BINGO!!!!!!! I have absolutely confirmed this!! But it also depends upon the player. I've not been able to play *any* of the dvds made in our old Samsung combo VCR/DVD player. But every one plays ok in the newer DVD only player. This is true no matter which type blank I use.

Following your advice to burn @ 4x, every DVD now plays in the older Samsung combo.

Thanks for the tip Ken!!

[Manzano808]

SUCCESS!!

Ok, I followed your instructions on choosing "Same as First video clip..." and I made separate files for each episode after editing. I also followed your directions on starting a new Project and burned as you said.

DARN!! Sorry people! Just when I thought I had it all figured out and workin!!

Seems that this OOS bug pops up every now and then. The other day I captured an old movie. I goofed and file was too big for single layer dvd so I burned it to a dual layer. Audio was NOT out of synch, even at the end.

But then I just captured an 87 minute show, and it was out of sync AGAIN at the end. Started being visibly OOS even towards the end.

The only differences are
1. in capture settings was the bitrate, "frame-based" vs "UFF", & audio hz settings, and:
2. used another (older capture card and system) for the long movie that turned out ok:

Using the ATI software on an older ATI All-in-Wonder 128 Pro:
At 8000 kbps and Video type shown as MPEG-2 Video, there is NO out of sync problem. The Project Properites for this video shows "Frame-based" although I KNOW the video file BEFORE burning was "upper field first" as it was captured using AIW ATI software and ALL clips using that shows as UFF. VS must have changed this during burning?????? And this older version of MMC will not record @ 48000 hz, so 44,100 was used and is indeed listed in the file properties. This older system has a SB Live sound card and the newer machine has the AudigyZS.

The show at 6500 kbps and video listed in properties as MPEG-2 Video, Upper Field First. Project Properties for this was the same as for this one I used Trevor's idea on how to make sure the burning phase properties are the same.

The only other difference was that the long movie was recorded on the P3 system, I simply moved the large file over to the P4 for burning. The shorter 87 min w/ the OOS problem was captured on the P4 listed in Profile.

WHAT GIVES?!! I am hoping this has more to do with the compression rate than the machine/capture card used.

It's the same old problem again. Large Project file is fine all the way through, but burned DVD is NOT. Also stored the .vob files on disk and when played directly in PowerDVD it is out of sync the same as the burned dvd (this seems normal - if dvd is oos than so should these video_ts files)

I am really stumped on this. Should I just capture using the lower 44100 hz in all cases? Should I try using LPCM instead of Mpeg audio? Should I just use the older P3 and the older MMC software to capture from now on and move the huge file to the other for burning? Or should I just record the audio and video separately? (don't know how to do that but I sure can learn) YIKES this is NUTS.

Meanwhile I will try to capture using the older huffyuv codec in Avi but it still creates approx 30 GB per hour drive usage. I tried Microsoft Video-1 like Trevor suggested but it was horrible looking. Really pixilated. Of course, that was using the newer MMC ATI software. I'lll try it in VS to see what it looks like.

[Trevor Andrew]

Hi

Sorry you are still having problems.

You seem to be having problems capturing to Avi format.
But you indicate that you are ok capturing to Mpeg .
(Using the ATI software on an older ATI All-in-Wonder 128 Pro:
At 8000 kbps and Video type shown as MPEG-2 Video, there is NO out of sync problem.)

If you are capturing to Mpeg 2, you should select DVD as the ‘Format’. This will select a Dvd compatible template.(lower frame first)(as an example)
If you select Mpeg, this will give you a video compatible format suitable for viewing on your pc and the internet. (frame based)
The two templates are a bit different, the one you want is the DVD Format.

If you are capturing 84 minutes as your last attempt then 8000 is too high to fit to a single disc, use 6000 constant frame rate.
Use Digital Dolby as your audio properties.

The settings should look similar to these:-

MPEG files
24 Bits, 720 x 480, 29.97 fps
Lower Field First
(DVD-NTSC), 4:3
Video data rate: 6000 kbps
Audio data rate: 256 kbps
Dolby Digital Audio, 48 KHz, 2/0(L,R)

Ok you say

(The only other difference was that the long movie was recorded on the P3 system, I simply moved the large file over to the P4 for burning. The shorter 87 min w/ the OOS problem was captured on the P4 listed in Profile.)

How long is the long movie????????????????
I would class 87 minutes as long for a normal disc. So what is long.????????????????


Trevor

[Manzano808]

You seem to be having problems capturing to Avi format. But you indicate that you are ok capturing to Mpeg .

Yeah, I am trying out the huffyuv codec to see if that's a possibility. But at around 30 GBs per hour at 640x480, it creates a huge file. As Ken mentioned, seems that MPEG is the only choice for keeping file smaller.
(Using the ATI software on an older ATI All-in-Wonder 128 Pro: At 8000 kbps and Video type shown as MPEG-2 Video, there is NO out of sync problem.)

If you are capturing to Mpeg 2, you should select DVD as the ‘Format’. This will select a Dvd compatible template.(lower frame first)(as an example)
If you select Mpeg, this will give you a video compatible format suitable for viewing on your pc and the internet. (frame based)
The two templates are a bit different, the one you want is the DVD Format.

If you are capturing 84 minutes as your last attempt then 8000 is too high to fit to a single disc, use 6000 constant frame rate.
Use Digital Dolby as your audio properties.

Well, on the 87 min. show I had used 6500 but at VBR. This was on the newer card. I know that the older AIW 128 Pro doesn't give me any DVD choice and seems to always record UFF. The ATI software simply shows "MPEG-2" yet this worked. However, I burned this project before I found your tips on keeping the burning properties same so I don't know what it did.

The settings should look similar to these:-

MPEG files
24 Bits, 720 x 480, 29.97 fps
Lower Field First
(DVD-NTSC), 4:3
Video data rate: 6000 kbps
Audio data rate: 256 kbps
Dolby Digital Audio, 48 KHz, 2/0(L,R)

But doesn't this go against the Recommended Procedures in the Sticky? It says to use the UFF for analog capture. Could this be more confusing?

How long is the long movie????????????????
I would class 87 minutes as long for a normal disc. So what is long.????????????????Trevor

The movie was over 120 minutes and I'd captured it into one large file in one session. THERE WAS NO COMMERCIALS so I didn't have to chop it up like the other example. Perhaps therein lies the main problem? It seems with editing out commercials on an hour show is ok (barely) but with a longer 2 hour show it is just too much chopping and ends up OOS. The 87 min example above was actually the result of a 2 hour show WITHOUT all the commericals. Lots of butchering needed.

But again, if you are telling me to now capture using LFF, doesn't this go against the Recommended Procedures that I've been learning?

Thank you Trevor for the wonderful help!

[Manzano808]

While Patiently waiting for another reply from the Esteemed and Precious Trevor , I tried Womble and have plans to purchase this Awesome program!!

Took the original mpeg files from this latest problem project, shoved them into Womble, chopped it all up again and BINGO!...out came a perfectly synched DVD! The guys behind this program must be flat out geniuses.

Editing was simple, smooth and very fast to finish. No problems whatsoever. Amazing Product. Makes me rethink plans to focus all attention on Avi capture.

Should've tried this much sooner. Nevertheless, in every sunny day of video editing/creation, it seems a bit of rain must fall, but now - thanks to you guys and amazing software like this - i should be more prepared.

[Trevor Andrew]

Hi Manzano

We seem to be sometimes talking at cross purposes, When I refer to capture I am talking about Video Studio and not the MMC that comes with the 128 pro card.

Using VS if you capture to Mpeg 2 you should select DVD as the ‘Capture Format’
This gives you a standard VS template but you may have to change some settings to match your needs.

As you know pressing Options allows you to do this.

VS defaults the field order to Lower Field suitable for Digital Capture.
When you capture from an analogue source such as the Ati Rage Theatre Video Capture you may need to change the Field Order. ( options-change field order) to Upper Field.

Be aware---not all analogue sources are Upper Field, some not many are Lower.
Digital Capture afaik is always Lower.

Bit Rate
A video file 120 minutes long requires a bit rate of approx 4000kbps in order to produce a file that will fit to disc.(under 4.3GB)
By capturing to 4000 you could if you wish burn a disc without further rendering.
If you edit out the commercials then Share –Create Video File can be used to create a new file.
By using the same settings as capture, rendering will be very quick.
If the bit rate needs changing to create a smaller file then rendering will take a long time.

I will give the ATI MMC capture a looking at with regards to field order, you seem to say that Ati and VS were different, when rendering, VS should not changed the field order as the order should be correct during capture.

When you capture using Video Studio watch the Drop Frame Counter it should remain at zero.

All the Best
Merry Christmas

Trevor

[Trevor Andrew]

Hi Manzano

Ok I have completed a few captures one minute long using the Ati Mmc panel.

Capturing to Avi:-
The default Avi frame size was 352 x 288. Although I could customize and create my own template I could not select 720 x 576 as my frame size, I am in pal country, you may have better results using Ntsc (720 x 480.)

Capturing seemed to go ok although I could not view a drop frame counter.
I was also concerned that the frame size was different to the VS standard, and felt that unnecessary rendering may have to be done within VS.

Capturing to Mpeg 2
The mcc panel gave me several templates to choose, Best, Good, Longest, Video CD and custom.
The ‘Best’ quality option was the only one to use a full frame (720 x 576 for pal) and 8000kbps.
I could customize creating my own templates which is a good option.

In both cases capture used Frame Based, I was unable to change this option to use interlaced Upper or Lower Fields.

I could import the captured files to Video Studio with no problem, edit the video and Share Create Video File.

A capture using video studio to 4000kbps would allow me to capture 2 hours of video, easily fitting to disc, use upper field and select digital dolby as audio.

I prefer to use VS for all capture editing and burning.
I would make sure my capture properties are the same as my rendering / burner settings.
If you wish to capture to a higher rate (8000) then recode to a lower rate to fit the video to disc that’s ok. But I prefer to use the same settings throughout when capturing Vhs footage.

I would advise you to capture using Video Studio.

Hope this Helps

All the Best

Oh----I am going out tonight so if I don’t reply I am in the pub.

Trevor

[sjj1805]

Here is my last resort I have tried everything else cure.
http://phpbb.ulead.com.tw/EN/viewtopic.php?t=11446

Regards
Steve J