"this action will take some time to render"

[Binary1]

Hello all you knowledgeable people out there!!!

Well its late, I am frustrated and I am a newbie.
Having said all that let me tell you of a problem that I am having in Video Studio 9.

I am trying to copy some old VHS tapes from my sisters wedding, some from an ultrasound and family memories tapes, etc.

I want to put them on a DVD ISO so I can burn them for our relatives as many times as they need.

I am pulling my hair out because it has been over 18 hours processing and I am only 8% done. This is CRAZY.

I am using Ulead Studio 9 (I downloaded for free) I had Ulead Studio 8 SE because of other issues. (Which I don’t want to get into here)

With Studio 8 SE I could burned a DVD in like 30 minutes from a 30 min tape. Now its taking forever with the new VideoStudio 9. HELP!!!

I have a PIV-3GHz machine, 2 gigs of 800 MHz RAM about 160 gigs of space on my HD.

I used the "default" recording for transferring from VHS and I just wanted to place a 1.5 hour .avi (which has already been placed on my HD - and I cant view that directory because Windows explorer screws up when browsing that area - but that’s another issue)

I am taking the "default" properties for the creation of the ISO and during the "converting video" it is taking like 18 hours....

HELP!!!!!!!!!

Here is a breakdown of my issues:
1) Video conversion is taking 18 hours + for 2 hours of .avi’s
2) VideoStudio 9 created .avi’s will cause windows explorer to bomb out if I view those directories.
3) If I cancel a “burn” and try to “burn” again the program will not let me stop the process until I kill the VideoStudio.exe task in the task manager.
4) Why does the burn process take 54839584x as long as it did with VideoStudio 8?

Newbie in trouble,
Jason

[DVDDoug]

I suspect that there is something different about your AVI capture format this time… By any chance, are these MPEG-4 encapsulated / AVIs? Some people have reported horrendous render-times with DivX or MPEG-4.

[Binary1]

Yes here are the stats from within Video Studio 9:
format: Microsoft AVI files - OpenDML
File Size: 1,169,270Kbytes
Frame Rate: 29.970
Duration 2369.736 seconds
Data Rate: 484.92 kbps

Video
Compression: DivX 5.1.1 Codec
Attributes: 24Bits, 640 x 480
71,021 Total Frames

Audio
Compression: MPEG1 Layer2 Audio
Attributes: 44100 Hz, 128 kbps, Joint Stereo
Samples: 104,504,834

[jchunter]

Binary,
Anything that takes more than one hour in Video Studio probably should be terminated. Take a different tack entirely. Start by reading the sticky post at the top of this forum. It recommends a procedure that can avoid these problems. Read it.

Your video properties tell me that you are way off the beam. Somehow you have blundered into video properties that are completely inappropriate for what you are trying to accomplish. How you ever got tangled up in a Divx conversion is a mystery that perhaps future archealogists may find an interesting puzzle.

In any case, you are trying to convert VHS tapes to DVD. Simple. Begin by deleting the original capture files because it seems the file is corrupt or in a useless format. Start over by capturing the video again using the Recommended Procedure, carefully setting up your capture properties and, since you are capturing from VHS, you can use a video bitrate of 4000 - 6000 Kbps without reducing resolution.

Continue with the Recommended workflow, carefullly, manually, setting each and every video and audio property setting along the way. Don't ever trust Video Studio to default you into "safe" property settings. When you learn to manage them all yourself, you will be a happy camper.
Good Luck,
John

[Binary1]

Thank you both for replying to the post! and jchunter that was hilarious about "future archeologists"!

One thing, I tried to read the beginning post but I am getting way too confused.

Is there a setting for recording the VHS tape that you would consider "standard" and then outputting that to a DVD format that is kinda "standard"? I do not wish to become an expert with this tool. I am trying to just get some items off VHS (which are a crappy storage method anyway) to something more solid like DVD.

I just want my sister to be able to watch her VHS on her DVD player in her living room. Nothing fancy, I don’t care if the "bit sampling rate" or the "capture rate" is within a 0.00025 % flawless rate... I just want to take a normal VHS and convert to a normal DVD format.

Any guidance on typical or standard settings would be hellahelpful.

Thanks again for the posts! You guys are spot on!
Jason

[jchunter]

Jason,
OK. Here is a different perspective on the situation.

Video editing is similar to crossing the great Okefenokee swamp without a compass. If you are not serious about getting to the other side, don't even try because you will be eaten be alligators or sink into the quicksand.

However, if you have a serious interest in crossing, then use the map (i.e., the Recommended Procedure). It was created by those who actually made to the other side and lived to write about it.

Video editing is a lot more complex than most other PC applications. The software has not matured to the extent that anyone can blunder around and succeed in making DVDs.

Cheers,
John

[Binary1]

Ok, I re-read through the document you recommended.

Everything is starting to clear...

I used these settings :

The following is an example listing of video Properties (for digital video in the USA):

NTSC drop frame (29.97 fps)
MPEG files
24 Bits, 720 x 480, 29.97 fps
Lower Field First
(DVD-NTSC), 4:3
Video data rate: Variable (Max. 8000 kbps)
Audio data rate: 224 kbps
MPEG audio layer 2, 48 KHz, Stereo

Then I just chose the standard options to burn the video to DVD ISO.

GUESS WHAT!!!! I am now looking at about an hour in processing this video!!!!

THANK YOU GUYS FOR YOUR HELP!!!!!

[heinz-oz]

If I'm not totally mistaken, NTSC doesn't like mpeg audio and 8000kbps variable is much too high for VHS capture. I would give it a shot with CBR 4000 - 4500 kbps. The sound bitrate could also be lower. I usually use 192 kbps AC-3 (Dolby Stereo).

I live in PAL land and am not conversant with NTSC standard. If my hunch with the sound compression was wrong, I'm sure someone will correct me very quickly.

[jchunter]

Jason,
Great! Now you are on the right track. But there are still some minor problems with your capture properties.

You are capturing analog video from a VHS tapedeck, which should require Field Order propery of Upper Field First. How are you capturing, anyway? Capture box?, Digital camcorder pass through?

The other tweak is that you can save space by selecting a lower video Bitrate property of, say, 4000kbps. Mpeg layer 2 audio is OK but you could use Dolby or Mp3.

John

[2Dogs]

If I'm not totally mistaken, NTSC doesn't like mpeg audio and 8000kbps variable is much too high for VHS capture. I would give it a shot with CBR 4000 - 4500 kbps. The sound bitrate could also be lower. I usually use 192 kbps AC-3 (Dolby Stereo).

I live in PAL land and am not conversant with NTSC standard. If my hunch with the sound compression was wrong, I'm sure someone will correct me very quickly.

Hey Heinz!

I'm in NTSC-ville and I have no problems using MPEG audio. In fact it enables the use of higher video bitrates - irrelevant in this case, of course, since most people reccommend fairly low rates for VHS to DVD projects.

So long as the footage fits onto the disk and is DVD-VR compliant, it's not too high. There's no significant rendering time penalty, though the ISO file creation and disc burn times will be slightly longer.

[Terry Stetler]

The "DVD-Video legal" audio formats include Dolby Digital, MPEG-1 & MPEG-2, LPCM and DTS.

In NTSC-land the preferred format is Dolby Digital while in PAL-land it's MPEG. Because of this most all players include both of these plus LPCM else they'd have to run separate production lines, which is not economically viable.

DTS is often a value-added feature and not "required", though more and more lower end decks are including it as well.

DVD discs are, of course, another matter and may include just one format, all of 'em or some mix of the above.

Characteristics;

Dolby Digital (AKA: AC3)

Dolby Digital provides up to 5.1-channel surround sound and is currently used in some Laserdisc players and discs as well as DVD-Video. The coding format is lossy so some of the original audio quality will be lost. Bit rates from 64kb/s (mono) to 448kb/s are available.

Full 5.1 channel surround sound requires at least 384kb/s, but Dolby recommends using the maximum 448kb/s. Stereo audio is normally encoded at 192kb/s.

DVD-Video players will output the 5.1 channel Dolby Digital (excluding the low frequency effects channel) to Dolby Surround (ProLogic) via the analog stereo outputs for use where there is no Dolby Digital decoder.

MPEG

The MPEG video encoding formats include audio encoding, which uses lossy compression.

* MPEG-2 provides 5.1 or 7.1-channel surround sound and can be either CBR or VBR. CBR bit rates can be between 32kb/s and 912kb/s, 384kb/s being the average. The sampling rate is fixed at 48kHz. The 7.1 channel option adds left-centre and right centre speakers.

* MPEG-1 layer II stereo audio, as used for Video CD. MPEG-1 can only be CBR with bit rates up to 224 kb/s.

MPEG-1 Layer III (AKA: MP3) is not supported in the DVD standard though some players will play "MP3 audio discs".

MPEG-1 and MPEG-2 audio coding are identical for stereo audio, so MPEG-2 audio is backward compatible with MPEG-1 decoders.

LPCM

Linear PCM (LPCM) offers an alternative uncompressed audio format that is similar to CD audio, but with higher sampling frequencies. LPCM offers up to 8 channels of 48kHz or 96kHz sampling frequency and 16, 20 or 24 bits per sample but not all at the same time.

These values compare with 44.1kHz and 16 bits as used for CD audio. The maximum bit rate is 6.144 Mb/s, which is much higher than Dolby Digital or MPEG-2 coding. LPCM offers high quality (similar to DVD-Audio) but its high data rate leaves little bandwidth for video.

DTS

DTS (Digital Theater Systems) Digital Surround is an optional 5.1 channel audio format that has become quite popular for DVD. DTS uses lossy compression with a sampling frequency of 48 kHz at up to 20 bits per sample. The data rate can range from 64 kbps to 1.536 Mb/s, with typical rates of 768 and 1536.

As to the long media encoding times;

Using DivX sources then transcoding them to MPEG causes two major problems: quality loss and long encoding times.

Much of both are because you're transcoding from one temporally compressed (14x or more synthesized frames than real ones) distribution format to another, each with quite dissimilar data layouts.

DivX in particular is in no way intended to be an editing source format.

The math involved in creating "real" frames from DivX' version of real/synthesized frames before they can be encoded to a whole different layout of real/synthesized frames for MPEG is maddening, hence the long conversion times.

Using 44.1khz audio adds to the problem because most encoders will want to ramp this up to 48khz for use on a DVD. Not so hard a maths operation as the video, but still

It would be far better to capture in DVD legal MPEG, edit that then export to the same format. VideoStudio can do this if your system is fast enough.

If your system isn't fast enough to encode realtime MPEG captures then I'd recommend capturing to uncompressed *.avi (takes up a LOT of disc space) or MJPeg for the edits.

MPEG encodes from these formats will be much faster than those from DivX because they are not temporally compressed; every frame is "real" and therefore the encoder dosn't have as much work to do.

This speeds the convesion significantly, though you should still expect anywhere from 1.5 to 6 times the program length as an encode time, depending on the CPU speed and how many effects you've added.

Morgan ($20 ), PICVideo ($28 ) and MainCcncept ($19 ) make excellent MJPeg codecs you can both capture and edit with and they are VERY fast, even using what would be called "slow" systems these days. Ex: I've been capturing and editing with software MJPeg codecs since the Pentium III days.

Pont of reference: MJPeg was the editors codec of choice long before DV came along, and for analog capture/edits IMO it's still the pip as long as you use a high quality setting.

Personal preference: PICVideo and MainConcept. MainConcept is more compatable if you plan on upgrading to MSPro 8 and using it with MSP8's HDV proxy mode, but otherwise....

Morgan:

http://www.morgan-multimedia.com/buyitV3.htm

PICVideo:

http://www.pegasusimaging.com/picvideomjpeg.htm

MainConcept:

http://www.mainconcept.com/products.shtml

[2Dogs]

Pont of reference: MJPeg was the editors codec of choice long before DV came along, and for analog capture/edits IMO it's still the pip as long as you use a high quality setting.

Personal preference: PICVideo and MainConcept. MainConcept is more compatable if you plan on upgrading to MSPro 8 and using it with MSP8's HDV proxy mode, but otherwise....

Am I just getting confused here or are you suggesting the above as an alternative to the "recommended method"?

[Terry Stetler]

Part of the "recommended workflow" is to edit in MPEG.

While MPEG is reliable (no transcoding from DivX to MPEG etc.) and easy on a fast enough system it's not the best way to do it because MPEG is a lossy format. Lossy = it artifacts when you add a lot of effects.

This comes with the turf when you're talking about temporally compressed formats.

Basically MPEG is mainly intended to be a distribution format and not an editing format, except when using HDV and this ain't HDV.

Because of MJPeg's qualities as an editing source it's been used in many pro level editing products with one example being Matrox's DigiSuite, a $10,000+ piece of hardware. It's also better than DV if you're adding a lot of effects.

As such I'm offering it as a higher quality alternative workflow for those who wish to use it.

Take that from someone who's been editing video on a computer since before most of you were out of elementary school, or in some cases diapers.

[2Dogs]

As such I'm offering it as a higher quality alternative workflow for those who wish to use it.

Dear Terrry,

this is beginning to sound almost too good to be true! Do I take it that working with MJPeg gives superior results to working with DV avi?

If MiniDV footage can be captured directly to MJPeg faster, or at max quality on slower machines, it sounds like a win-win situation. What's the downside - are you obliged to use pro or prosumer video editors?

(I was never in diapers, by the way - they were always "nappies" in England, and that was many decades ago)

[jchunter]

Terry,
The Recommended Procedure presents a choice between a workflow based on DV or one based on Mpeg. It presents a very brief description of the advantages and disadvantages. It does not take sides on one over the other.

Its main thrust, however, is stress the overarching value of managing video properties throughout the workflow. Property settings can make or break any video project.

John