I am having a problem with field order. I had some analog video that I previously captured with VS9. It was lower field first. Recently I captured some new video and it was captured frame based. My 1st question is this: If you have video that you wish ton use in the same project but the field order is different, what is the procedure to get good quality output since the field order will have to be changed on some of the video. In any case, on the video that was captured frame based I thought this was odd since it was captured from a VHS tape played on a VCR. I used my Pyro A/V Link and captured it directly with VS9. I then noticed that VS9 default field order was set to frame based so I changed VS9s default field order to lower field first and recaptured the video. This time it was captured as lower field first. I tried it again setting VS9s default field order as upper field first and sure enough it was captured as upper field first. It seems that whatever VS9s default field order is set for is how the video is captured. This doesn't seem correct to me since I would imagine that the video on the VHS tape is in a specific field order and it doesn't change just because I set VS9s defaults differently. Can someone shed some light on this for me? Is there some software available that wll scan the tape and determine the field order?
Thanks in advance
How to determine field order
Moderator: Ken Berry
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DiscCoasterPro
- Posts: 250
- Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2005 10:42 pm
Hi, strtline ... The understanding of field order has been my obsession since I recently got involved with video editing of my home movies. I have sat and read about it night after night. I have posted questions about it, and I have received answers from some very knowledgable folks. I feel as dumb as a tree stump. I just don't get it.
Sure everything you read talks about the TV being an interlaced device, that I understand. It is precisely your question that I cannot grasp the answer to.
I was using an external analog to digital capture device that used it's own software. It captured my VHS in mpeg2 LFF. I made a wedding DVD for a friend which played nicely on my PC. Never thinking about it, I gave it to him. He complained of very jittery horizontal movement. We played it back on 3 DVD players. Sure enough it was very jittery.
I took another capture, this time with an exteral firewire device that captured DV/AVI LFF. The result was perfect.
Here's the kicker ... I just realized that two days prior to my attempt of the wedding video, with the exact same settings I made a short DVD for another friend of his kids Bday party. It was made from VHS also. I called him just last night, and asked if his played back jittery .. he said, no it was perfect. LOL .. go figure.
I was thinking that incoming analog signals dont even have a field order, cause they are individual frames (stills) kind of taken quickly with the analog camcorder. Maybe field order happens once it's digital. But then, why do they say analog is UFF and digital is LFF..... and if that IS true, why did my original (cheapie) converter capture analog LFF. <sigh>
The converter I use now sends a signal through firewire, into VS as a DV/AVI LFF ... so as you say .. what exactly is VS looking at? An analog signal from the originating VHS tape ??? or .... this "now converted" digital signal from the converter .... which in my mind would make what ever happened prior to conversion ... irrelevant.
The only clue I have come to understand in this brain block I seem to be having, is that TVs don't read any particular field order first (from what I have read) I don't know if that bit of information is bringing me closer to understanding this concept or farther from it.
I suppose I'm very stubborn, but I can't bring myself to accept you gotta try it and see if you have it right and then switch things if you guess wrong.
I'm beginning to think it's like asking Picasso to describe the color orange. I mean the man was a genius, but he just can't tell ya. LOL
dcp
Sure everything you read talks about the TV being an interlaced device, that I understand. It is precisely your question that I cannot grasp the answer to.
I was using an external analog to digital capture device that used it's own software. It captured my VHS in mpeg2 LFF. I made a wedding DVD for a friend which played nicely on my PC. Never thinking about it, I gave it to him. He complained of very jittery horizontal movement. We played it back on 3 DVD players. Sure enough it was very jittery.
I took another capture, this time with an exteral firewire device that captured DV/AVI LFF. The result was perfect.
Here's the kicker ... I just realized that two days prior to my attempt of the wedding video, with the exact same settings I made a short DVD for another friend of his kids Bday party. It was made from VHS also. I called him just last night, and asked if his played back jittery .. he said, no it was perfect. LOL .. go figure.
I was thinking that incoming analog signals dont even have a field order, cause they are individual frames (stills) kind of taken quickly with the analog camcorder. Maybe field order happens once it's digital. But then, why do they say analog is UFF and digital is LFF..... and if that IS true, why did my original (cheapie) converter capture analog LFF. <sigh>
The converter I use now sends a signal through firewire, into VS as a DV/AVI LFF ... so as you say .. what exactly is VS looking at? An analog signal from the originating VHS tape ??? or .... this "now converted" digital signal from the converter .... which in my mind would make what ever happened prior to conversion ... irrelevant.
The only clue I have come to understand in this brain block I seem to be having, is that TVs don't read any particular field order first (from what I have read) I don't know if that bit of information is bringing me closer to understanding this concept or farther from it.
I suppose I'm very stubborn, but I can't bring myself to accept you gotta try it and see if you have it right and then switch things if you guess wrong.
I'm beginning to think it's like asking Picasso to describe the color orange. I mean the man was a genius, but he just can't tell ya. LOL
dcp
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Trevor Andrew
DCP i think you may be correct as you cannot see it until you have tried it, viewed it.DiscCoasterPro wrote: I suppose I'm very stubborn, but I can't bring myself to accept you gotta try it and see if you have it right and then switch things if you guess wrong.
I'm beginning to think it's like asking Picasso to describe the color orange. I mean the man was a genius, but he just can't tell ya. LOL dcp
OK
Strtline
Basically
Digital capture is ‘Lower Field’
Analogue ‘Upper Field’
You appear to be capturing to Mpeg format
You have two choices as for the capture format Mpeg or Dvd
Selecting Dvd will give the most compatible template for making a disc.
You may have to change the ‘frame order’ depending on your capture source.
You can Detect the Field Order from ‘Options’
You need the video playing and showing in the preview window to detect.
Trevor
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Strtline
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DiscCoasterPro
- Posts: 250
- Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2005 10:42 pm
<sigh>-
GeorgeK
Upper Field First
Strtline,
I would like to give you my two cents worth (or with inflation, say $10.00).
I have 50 hours of family Hi8 Video which has caused me much pain trying to learn the correct method for capturing to the computer.
Ulead provides this page which may help in the technical description http://www.ulead.com/learning/video3/page1.htm.
My believe is that this pages is trying to say, on Field based video, each field is 1/50th of a second advanced from itself so if the field order is reversed our eyes see each frame the video being played played backward. It is amazing that we can discern this.
And the Web Board's http://phpbb.ulead.com.tw/EN/viewtopic. ... c&start=15
page says;
I have no idea why, but I have found that the TV Capture card that I use always provides video (analogue) TV or S-Video or Composite as Upper Field first (which agrees with the Ulead Web Board statement quoted above).
If I allow Ulead to "Detect" the field order it believes that the analogue video is Lower Field First, but my results show that this is not the case. Use only Upper Field first for Analogue capture
Your problem will be that a project only allows for one field order and if you want to mix Lower and Upper field video (ie Analogue and DV captures) then it will not work.
To over come the mixed field orders, I suggest converting both video to Frame based (separately, in separate projects). then using the Frame Based files in a Frame Based capture. To my knowledge Frame Based is used for Plasma screens and Computer screens (progressive scan screens). My testing showed that Frame Based showed OK on my TV. I believe that Frame Based is a way of "de-interlacing" each video frame and so removing any Lower/Upper Field being different.
So the recommenation:
Use Lower Field First for DV Video (because this is what it is).
Use Upper Field First for Analogue Video capture
Convert to Frame Based is you want to mix LFF/UFF video.
I would like to give you my two cents worth (or with inflation, say $10.00).
I have 50 hours of family Hi8 Video which has caused me much pain trying to learn the correct method for capturing to the computer.
Ulead provides this page which may help in the technical description http://www.ulead.com/learning/video3/page1.htm.
My believe is that this pages is trying to say, on Field based video, each field is 1/50th of a second advanced from itself so if the field order is reversed our eyes see each frame the video being played played backward. It is amazing that we can discern this.
And the Web Board's http://phpbb.ulead.com.tw/EN/viewtopic. ... c&start=15
page says;
It is my understanding that if you capture DV footage from a DV camera using a Firewire card, then you are simply transfering a "file" of video from the camera to the hard disk. On disk it is stored as an AVI file of DV Type 1 (or Type 2, but I always use Type 1 as this is what the camera uses). DV Type 1 video is always Lower Field first, so if you leave the video in this format, then all will be well when displaying on a Field order based system like a TV.Mpeg Properties (NTSC only):
NTSC drop frame (29.97 fps)
MPEG files
24 Bits, 720 x 480, 29.97 fps
Lower Field First {if analog use "Upper Field First"}
(DVD-NTSC), 4:3
Video data rate: Variable (Max. 8000 kbps)
Audio data rate: 224 kbps
MPEG audio layer 2, 48 KHz, Stereo
I have no idea why, but I have found that the TV Capture card that I use always provides video (analogue) TV or S-Video or Composite as Upper Field first (which agrees with the Ulead Web Board statement quoted above).
If I allow Ulead to "Detect" the field order it believes that the analogue video is Lower Field First, but my results show that this is not the case. Use only Upper Field first for Analogue capture
Your problem will be that a project only allows for one field order and if you want to mix Lower and Upper field video (ie Analogue and DV captures) then it will not work.
To over come the mixed field orders, I suggest converting both video to Frame based (separately, in separate projects). then using the Frame Based files in a Frame Based capture. To my knowledge Frame Based is used for Plasma screens and Computer screens (progressive scan screens). My testing showed that Frame Based showed OK on my TV. I believe that Frame Based is a way of "de-interlacing" each video frame and so removing any Lower/Upper Field being different.
So the recommenation:
Use Lower Field First for DV Video (because this is what it is).
Use Upper Field First for Analogue Video capture
Convert to Frame Based is you want to mix LFF/UFF video.
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rs02931
ok..........So does frame/Field based have ANYTHING to do with what the final product will be played on?????? PC vs TV vs Digital TV???????
So, if you had 30 Photos that you scanned into PC and was going to make a DVD slide show with no other source material ....would you use FAME or FIELD based???????????
Think we need David Copperfield to answer these questions !!!!! LOL
Bob
So, if you had 30 Photos that you scanned into PC and was going to make a DVD slide show with no other source material ....would you use FAME or FIELD based???????????
Think we need David Copperfield to answer these questions !!!!! LOL
Bob
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Trevor Andrew
Hi
If I were making a slide show consisting of only still images to be viewed on a TV set I would use Lower Field first.
I would use the template that I always use for my normal video’s.
Unless the target audience was web based or pc, Then I would use Frame Based for the frame type.
Afaik:- There is no reason why you cannot burn two video files to a dvd using different field orders.
If you have two files that have different field orders treat them in separate projects.
Create a separate Video Files of each.
Then Create Disc—Add Video Files.
Provided the source footage has been captured to the correct order and rendered to Mpeg in the correct order, It should not matter that they are burned on the same disc, all frames, half frames are in the right order and will play correctly.
The problem we have is not so much editing or making a disc but capturing, get it correct here and we should have no problems.
Digital capture use Lower Field order ( via Firewire I-link)
Analogue capture use Upper Field order
Trevor
If I were making a slide show consisting of only still images to be viewed on a TV set I would use Lower Field first.
I would use the template that I always use for my normal video’s.
Unless the target audience was web based or pc, Then I would use Frame Based for the frame type.
Afaik:- There is no reason why you cannot burn two video files to a dvd using different field orders.
If you have two files that have different field orders treat them in separate projects.
Create a separate Video Files of each.
Then Create Disc—Add Video Files.
Provided the source footage has been captured to the correct order and rendered to Mpeg in the correct order, It should not matter that they are burned on the same disc, all frames, half frames are in the right order and will play correctly.
The problem we have is not so much editing or making a disc but capturing, get it correct here and we should have no problems.
Digital capture use Lower Field order ( via Firewire I-link)
Analogue capture use Upper Field order
Trevor
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jchunter
Strtline,
The general rule of thumb is if you are capturing analog, use Upper Field First and if digital, use Lower Field First. Don't try to figure out Field Order (FO) unless you have a lot of spare time.
But in your case, the ADS Pyro A/V Link (http://www.adstech.com/products/API-555 ... d=API-5550) is designed to capture both analog and digital video to DV (AVI) format and I will guess that it is capturing both sources as LFF. I sent ADSTech an email asking your FO question and if they reply, I will post again.
If you must convert FO, do it by first creating a video file with the new FO and then select it in the Burn module. Do NOT select video files of different FO when burning a DVD because it will throw Video Studio into a frenzy of converting videos, which often has a bad outcome.
BTW, don't ever assume that Video Studio will choose appropriate default video property settings. Always set them yourself and avoid using a general Template unless you know exactly what its detailed property values are.
John
The general rule of thumb is if you are capturing analog, use Upper Field First and if digital, use Lower Field First. Don't try to figure out Field Order (FO) unless you have a lot of spare time.
But in your case, the ADS Pyro A/V Link (http://www.adstech.com/products/API-555 ... d=API-5550) is designed to capture both analog and digital video to DV (AVI) format and I will guess that it is capturing both sources as LFF. I sent ADSTech an email asking your FO question and if they reply, I will post again.
If you must convert FO, do it by first creating a video file with the new FO and then select it in the Burn module. Do NOT select video files of different FO when burning a DVD because it will throw Video Studio into a frenzy of converting videos, which often has a bad outcome.
BTW, don't ever assume that Video Studio will choose appropriate default video property settings. Always set them yourself and avoid using a general Template unless you know exactly what its detailed property values are.
John
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Trevor Andrew
Johnjchunter wrote:Strtline,
Do NOT select video files of different FO when burning a DVD because it will throw Video Studio into a frenzy of converting videos, which often has a bad outcome.
John
Are you saying that I cannot burn two mpeg files of different field order, ie one lower and one upper.
If so Why not?
Try it!
There is no re-coding / rendering involved the two files are identical except for the field order,
Rendering does not have a preference to which it uses, it does what you tell it.
All you are doing is copying the data to disc, I agree you are making a compliant dvd, but upper and lower are both compliant.
By adding two files of different field order you will not invoke the wrath of the dreaded render.
Trevor
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jchunter
Trevor,
If you check out the Burn Property settings (insignificant gear shaped icon hidden second to the right on the lower left hand side of the Burn screen
) you will see Field Order as a property setting for the DVD. Experienced users can control which video gets converted here. But its like playing with fire even for us.
However, IMO, newbies should not be encouraged to do any video conversions while burning DVDs. The reasons are well expressed by the multitude of posts on this forum by users who have come to grief after waiting hours for a DVD that fails while "converting videos".
Moreover, the video that gets converted from its native capture FO can often display the "shakes" when panning or on scenes with lots of motion. Even experienced users have had lots of problems with this.
Bottom line: I don't convert videos while burning DVDs and I don't recommend it for others.
John
If you check out the Burn Property settings (insignificant gear shaped icon hidden second to the right on the lower left hand side of the Burn screen
) you will see Field Order as a property setting for the DVD. Experienced users can control which video gets converted here. But its like playing with fire even for us. However, IMO, newbies should not be encouraged to do any video conversions while burning DVDs. The reasons are well expressed by the multitude of posts on this forum by users who have come to grief after waiting hours for a DVD that fails while "converting videos".
Moreover, the video that gets converted from its native capture FO can often display the "shakes" when panning or on scenes with lots of motion. Even experienced users have had lots of problems with this.
Bottom line: I don't convert videos while burning DVDs and I don't recommend it for others.
John
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Trevor Andrew
Hi John
I was NOT advising anyone that they should convert / render during the burning process.
I agree with all, that rendering should be completed in the Share Create Video File.
Using these files in Share Create Disc.
When I go to Share Create Disc
Add Video
It does NOT matter which Field Order my files contain.
The burn process will continue without rendering burning each file to the dvd with their respective field orders.
Once burnt the dvd WILL play ok on your dvd player. That machine is not bothered which order it gets it will play the first frame first and continue to the last.
Trevor
I was NOT advising anyone that they should convert / render during the burning process.
I agree with all, that rendering should be completed in the Share Create Video File.
Using these files in Share Create Disc.
When I go to Share Create Disc
Add Video
It does NOT matter which Field Order my files contain.
The burn process will continue without rendering burning each file to the dvd with their respective field orders.
Once burnt the dvd WILL play ok on your dvd player. That machine is not bothered which order it gets it will play the first frame first and continue to the last.
Trevor
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jchunter
Trevor,
I accept your hypothesis that video files preserve their own intrinsic field order in the Burn module. If you are correct, then it would mean that Video Studio is ignoring the Field Order Burn property directive behind the gear icon.
What objective measure do you use to decide what the final FO is?
The only ISO burn file that I have laying around shows the FO that I assigned when I created it. I don't have an ISO file made with different FO videos. If you do, import it into VS's timeline and see what FO it sets the Project Properties to.
John
I accept your hypothesis that video files preserve their own intrinsic field order in the Burn module. If you are correct, then it would mean that Video Studio is ignoring the Field Order Burn property directive behind the gear icon.
What objective measure do you use to decide what the final FO is?
The only ISO burn file that I have laying around shows the FO that I assigned when I created it. I don't have an ISO file made with different FO videos. If you do, import it into VS's timeline and see what FO it sets the Project Properties to.
John
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Trevor Andrew
Hi John
I have just burned a Dvd using two files, one upper field the other lower.
The resulting disc was imported back to VS using the ‘Insert Dvd/Dvd-Vr’ option.
After inserting the files to the timeline I checked the properties of both clips.
Both retained there respective field orders.
There is no problems as far as I can see, video studio will not re-render just because the field order is different.
Trevor
PS (This action may be true of the audio properties as well)
I have just burned a Dvd using two files, one upper field the other lower.
The resulting disc was imported back to VS using the ‘Insert Dvd/Dvd-Vr’ option.
After inserting the files to the timeline I checked the properties of both clips.
Both retained there respective field orders.
There is no problems as far as I can see, video studio will not re-render just because the field order is different.
Trevor
PS (This action may be true of the audio properties as well)
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jchunter
Trevor,
Well, I learn something new every day!!!
I am certainly not surprised that VS would offer to set Field Order in the burn module and then ignore the setting. After all, the VS8 Capture module would silently steal certain property values from Project Property settings (I think that was Aspect Ratio).
BTW, I have tried to mix widescreen video with 4:3 video in the burn module and found VS9 wanting to convert one of them. So I tried it again today and this happens only when I manually set the aspect ratio property behind the gear icon. If I do not manually enter a setting, the burn gives no indication of wanting to convert either one!!! However, rechecking a mix of different FO videos, manually setting an FO property value does NOT invoke the dreaded Converting Videos dialog box.
Video Studio is even weirder and more confusing about properties than I thought...
John
Well, I learn something new every day!!!
I am certainly not surprised that VS would offer to set Field Order in the burn module and then ignore the setting. After all, the VS8 Capture module would silently steal certain property values from Project Property settings (I think that was Aspect Ratio).
BTW, I have tried to mix widescreen video with 4:3 video in the burn module and found VS9 wanting to convert one of them. So I tried it again today and this happens only when I manually set the aspect ratio property behind the gear icon. If I do not manually enter a setting, the burn gives no indication of wanting to convert either one!!! However, rechecking a mix of different FO videos, manually setting an FO property value does NOT invoke the dreaded Converting Videos dialog box.
Video Studio is even weirder and more confusing about properties than I thought...
John