videostudio 9 setting for vhs?

[michele]

Hello. i am italian and so escuse me for the terrible language.
I'd like transfer my vhs-c in dvd so which are the setting for videostudio 9 to do it? The quality, the resolution etc...

thank you at all.

[daniel]

My opinion only, others WILL diverge:

Capture upper field first, MPEG 720x576, variable 4000kb/s, audio MPEG stereo 48KhHz 224kbps
Then set the Quality slider at 100% and start capturing. Check for dropped frames, according to your hardware you will have to reduce quality to 95, 90 or 85% for instance until you stop dropping frames.

Edit and render using exactly the same settings, and check the Do not render DVD compliant files. No re-encoding will occur.
That will give you at least 2h30 of video on a DVD, with VHS quality.
Others will no doubt suggest a 352*576 or 352*288 resolution but I feel it affects subtitles and credits that are already difficult to read in VHS.

[michele]

thank you, grazie....

[GeorgeW]

What equipment will you be using to capture/transfer the VHS-C video to your computer

[michele]

my computer is an athlon 2600 with 512 mega ,ati radeon 9500 128 mega, capture card: tv station 7134

[DiscCoasterPro]

Hello gentlemen, I hope you don't mind me coming into this conversation. This has got to be my number one head scratching problem. Field Order.

My captures, which for the most part are waiting in the wings for me to understand what to do, are also analog, and mostly VHS, with some VHS-C and a few 8mm also.

In my case I'm capturing via firewire with a Canopus analog to digital converter. One of the primary reasons I bought a firewire type converter was because I thought I could use it like my DVcamcorder captures AVI and Lower field first. Basically I got this device to avoid the confusion, but I'm beginning to think it doesn't matter what you use to capture with, this field order thing is lurking.

I am totally lost with this field order thing (beyond of course the concept of how the TVs read lines) and how it differs from analog captures to digital captures and varies again with USB and firewire, AVI -MPEG.

I believe I'm suffering from misconceptions. For example, I thought analog footage didn't have a field order. If, this is accurate, then what ever I choose on the capture side should be irrelevant whether I capture AVI or MPEG. I thought the primary concern was not to mix field orders in your final timeline. (However, I kind of also thought VS9 would straighten it all out during the rendering anyway) <sigh> I dunno, I guess till I do, these piles of tapes are going to sit here.

Thanks for reading, and I hope its ok to join in this topic.

thanks,
dcp

[daniel]

DCP:

Until someone knowledgeable (I'm not) responds I'd suggest acquisition cards have a tendency to chop everything into fields (vast majority of digital to lower first, analog to upper first) because if you capture frame-based you will ultimately get 25 fps(PAL) which is U-G-L-Y to watch.

If you're not sure what your hardware does, there is always the "auto-detect" option before capturing to give a hint (not 100% accurate).

It's more important indeed not to mix styles (upper/lower) than having the right one for VHS.

An easy way is to capture 5 minutes of video with hectic movement (not the news speaker for instance), film company moving logos are fine too, they often show smooth movement, color shades moving etc.

Then you go through all the steps, capture, MPEG, DVD(RW if want my advice) for both field orders and watch the results attentively on the TV (not your PC with its progressive video), you will see which one is smooth, while the other way will show a hesitation or strobe effect due to movement not going 1-2-3-4-5-6 but 2-1-4-3-6-5 so the moves are going say, back one pixel, then forward two.
Once you've seen it, you'll spot it anywhere anytime for the rest of your life.
Usually end credits are a good test too, everything moves smoothly to the top, use you remote control to play it in slow motion 50%, then every FIELD is played twice enhancing the problem.

[DiscCoasterPro]

DCP:


If you're not sure what your hardware does, there is always the "auto-detect" option before capturing to give a hint (not 100% accurate).

It's more important indeed not to mix styles (upper/lower) than having the right one for VHS.

An easy way is to capture 5 minutes of video with hectic movement (not the news speaker for instance), film company moving logos are fine too, they often show smooth movement, color shades moving etc.

Then you go through all the steps, capture, MPEG, DVD(RW if want my advice) for both field orders and watch the results attentively on the TV m.

**WARNING**
THE FOLLOWING CONTAINS MUCH VENTING OF FRUSTRATION..LOL.. NO ONE IS TO TAKE THIS PERSONALLY. DON"T READ THIS IF YOU CARE TO MAINTAIN YOUR SANITY BECAUSE I HAVE LOST MINE JUST THINKING IT!

Here is how lost I REALLY AM ! Hey, If you wanna substitute the word STUPID for lost, thats ok too, because I am really beginning to think that must be my problem. I read and read and still don't get it.

I have not begun to convert all my analog stuff yet because I can't be satisified merely accepting a good or bad final outcome by a flip of the coin. "If this setting doesn't work .. switch it and try again" I'm not blaming your explanation ... EVERY explanation says that. WOW .. good thing thats not how to check for live circuits in a house when we go to wire it. There would be lots of folks with black fingertips and straight hair.

Not only am I not sure how my hardware captures ...I was under the impression that it didn't dictate field order, since, in order to run it, I have to use a capture software program, and all of those programs have "pre capture" setting that ask you how you want to capture. My hardware did not come with its own program. Hey what did I expect for 400 dollars . <sigh> I mean, if my hardware (Canopus 300) is preset to capture in a particuar field order, (there are no settings to change field order, nor is it mentioned in the instructions.) then why the #$% don't they put some card in there that says... THIS HARDWARE CAPTURES IN LOWER FIELD FIRST. Not that it matters anyway since I can't use it without a software interface which I can't use either unless I choose a field order setting from within that software first!

Geez .. what are we supposed to do experiment with every single element of every single hardware and software device we buy to capture some stinking video. Boy is this starting to get to me.

Ok, now auto detect, is this a part of VS9? If so, what exactly is it detecting? The incoming field order from my hardware device prior to the software settings in VS9? I mean if hardware really is capturing in the MFG. preset, then would it not make more sense for editing software to ask the question of field order by saying choose >> standard or reverse incoming field order.

I know this isn't making any sense to anyone. But, its like, do two negatives equal a positive. If my capture device captures in LFF and I set my software to LFF, do I get a different result than if my hardware captures in UFF and I set my software to LFF?

Capture five minutes EVERY TIME I use my program on a different project? Is that what you mean? The Movie "MY COUSIN VINNY" comes to mind when he says about grits.... are the laws of physics for cooking grits different in your house than anywhere else? LOL ..I mean which is it Upper or Lower. <whew>

I can picture, way back in the beginning, when the original film was being shot, one camera guy says to the other, "Hey Mel, waddia got your camcorder set to upper field first of lower field first?" "I dunno, whaddia think?" "Spin the wheel.. lets see what it picks". "Hey wait a minute Mel, my camcorder don't got no field order setting on it" LMAO .. BOY I"M LOOSING IT!

The only reason I thought capturing in AVI was a better choice was, as I understood it, it is less likely to drop frames than trying to compress on the fly while capturing to mpeg. My computer should be fast enough to handle it, but ... why risk the complication, when I'm trying to figure out what I'm doing and by the sounds of "on the fly Mgeg" capturing, I merely adding another variable to the confusion.

Disk space isn't an issue, its gonna have to render anyway, and to top it off, I am reading that editing with mpeg clips is not as good as using AVI.

I am so lost I am actually beginning to get frustrated. Is there not a book, an all in one location guide, some "from square one" explanation of this stuff. This is getting ridiculous. It seems that with every explanation I read I am carried off onto another learning tangent just to decipher the explanation. I can't believe that the answer is flip a coin and try it.

OK, there ya go, I'm officially burned out by this ..LOL.. Maybe catching butterflys is a better hobby. But would I swoop the net from the top down, or from the bottom up?

[daniel]

Keep cool.
Capture cards from analog input are "practically" all upper field first.
There are very few exceptions using strange converter chips so nobody will tell you this is a sure thing.

You start VS (that is your capture software) in capture mode, select your input card (should be automatic), and give it something to see (a tape playing (or in pause), a VHS player in tuner mode etc) then with the little gear/options buttons you select change field order, and there auto-detect.
You will get the field order as read by the program from your interface's driver.
You click OK and that's recorded in VS's settings. It will remain constant (and my bet is upper first) until you change your hardware i.e. your capture card. Done. Forget about it.

Not anything to become insane about..
You then have the option to capture to AVI (real) AVI (DV compressed) or MPEG (different flavours) according to your need to edit the movies or just trim out parts.

Listen DCP: my wife did understand it. So believe me you can. Although she insists she is DARK blonde.


Correction: oops sorry DV compression is only an option on DV capture, not analog. You can choose AVI (uncompressed, 1GB/min, is really space not an issue?) or MPEG, where the obvious choice is as high as your computer will go until it drops frames.

[DiscCoasterPro]

LOL ..thanks Dan, I went away for a minute, but I'm back.

My first problem to deal with I guess, is no program that I have opened with my capture device connected will recognize it by name. Although the captures seem to work fine audio and video, the capture device is called "UNKNOWN" I'm wondering if maybe the device has a faulty bios chip or someting that doesn't broadcast its name.

I dunno, gotta call Canopus and listen to the entire unfinished symphony on hold, they play even the part that wasn't finished ya know.

[DiscCoasterPro]

Success, I got through to Canopus finally. They told me this converter converts all analog inputs to DV output, lower field first, just like a camcorder would input to the VS9 program. I guess that is at least one known quantity at this point.

The fellow said, keep the software set at DV lowerfield first also with DV standards for settings. We'll see what happens now. I'm gonna fire for effect, lol.

dcp

[Ken Berry]

Just when you thought it was safe.... I thought I might 'muddy' the waters a little. The Canopus techs are of course absolutely correct about their own device. What they didn't say, and what you probably don't need or want to hear, is that it captures to DV LFF because it is hard-wired to do so. Most capture devices simply act as a go-between, transmitting an analogue signal to your computer where the receiving software picks an appropriate setting which is already on the computer, to capture in. This includes the codecs. In other words, you cannot normally capture video in a format for which there is no codec on the computer. But the Canopus comes with its own bells and whistles on board and in that sense is independent of what is on the computer and what the computer might do with another capture device which is not hard-wired like the Canopus to capture DV LFF. That is why I said to you a long time ago (well, maybe a couple of weeks) in a galaxy far, far away (or another thread) that you normally just trust the capture device to automatically detect the settings best suited to its capture method. It is normally (99%) correct. But in the 1% of cases where things don't look right with your captured video is when you have to flip your proverbial coin and say, 'well that didn't work. Maybe I'll try the other field order.'

In other words, dip your foot in and get it wet. It's no good refusing to even start downloading your VHS collection because you fear you might be doing something wrong. Most of the programs and devices are precisely out there to take a lot of the guesswork out of it. And if you are afraid of getting your feet wet, then you would still have the Children of Israel slaving away in Egypt because they were worried Moses might have chosen the wrong Field Order! (Sorry to mix metaphors...)[/list]

[DiscCoasterPro]

Hi Ken yah, I'm more afraid of total destruction than failure. Total destruction= hammer and bad temper. LOL

I'm going to dive in and see what happens. As I was asking daniel, my options with VS9 are DV, or AVI, or MPEG, or some others I don't really need to clutter this pea brain with now.

I'm curious if th Canopus device pumps out DV LFF like a camcorder, which is what the tech said, he also said choose DV on my capture software, which as I understood him is a 5 to 1 compression in its own right. What would happen if I chose the AVI option than daniel explained was totally uncompressed, would VS9 decompress the incoming compressed DV on the fly to a different type AVI.

Whew .. did I say that .. wow.

thanks ALL !!!!! For you help. I wish we were close I'd throw a lobster and beer party for everyone! Your help is invaluable, both with my efforts to learn and my efforts to stay sane while trying.

[Ken Berry]

In choosing a capture format (as opposed to Field Order!! ) there are a number of factors to bear in mind. First, again the Canopus tech was correct in describing DV as a compressed form of AVI. It was in fact developed by Microsoft as special AVI format for transferring the same quality of video as on your DV cassette in the digital video camera to your computer, though in a somewhat more manageable size than uncompressed AVI. As the tech said, it is compression with the factor of roughly 5: an hour of DV capture will take about 13 GB, whereas the same hour will take around 65 GB if capturing uncompressed AVI. And yes, the Canopus should push out DV LFF just as if you were capturing from your digital vidcam.

BUT -- and it's a big 'but' -- you cannot expect it to be of the same quaity as if it was being captured from a digital camera. Your source, which is analogue in this case, can never be any better than it was originally. At its best, that will be high quality analogue, not high quality digital.

And this is the main variable in deciding what format to capture in. 'Do I want to get as high a quality as is possible from an analogue source, regardless of anything else, notably size of the captured video file?' If the answer to that is 'yes', then choose DV as the capture format, do your editing, and only then render it to an mpeg-2 file for burning.

'Do I want to get a high quality capture but don't think it is worth wasting all the space that a DV capture [let alone an uncompressed AVI] would take up because the end quality will never be as high as digital?' If the answer to that one is 'yes' then you capture direct to mpeg-2. But a further variable comes in here: what quality mpeg-2? Many people would say that if you are capturing analogue video to mpeg-2, then the image quality given by a 4000 kbps capture is about as good as you can ever expect. That will also give you roughly 2 hours of finished video on a DVD. While I tend to agree with this philosophy, I nevertheless opt for a bit of caution in my own VHS captures, and capture analogue usually at 6000 kbps (which equates roughly to one and a half hours on the final DVD). The quality of the finished product to my eye is very good -- not excellent, like digital video, but at least as good as high quality VHS. But I have to admit it is probably not of a perceptibly higher quality to my naked eye than if I captured at 4000 kbps. In other words, it is again up to you to decide whether you want to fit more on a DVD or whether your projects are of such a length that one and a half hours per DVD is more than enough.

[DiscCoasterPro]

Great explanation Ken, I'm beginning to understand more and more. (Its about time, right?) Your first sentence .... tongue in cheek? sounds like capture format actually another way to say field order.

The bit rate information is great to know. I have a big external HD with plenty of room on it, and I would delete any files from a particular project after it was complete anyway, so I think I'll capture to DV when using the converter, edit and author before I encode it.

I'm still not happy with VS9 and DVD Workshop2 seeing the Canopus as "UNKNOWN DEVICE". It all works though, video-audio, captures and such, so I guess its ok. The tech fellow had me check device manager for the proper listing, that was ok, he was somewhat surprised that it wasn't specifically recognized as a DV device. He didn't expect it to say Canopus because he said there are no drivers provided to identify it. I assumed there was some kind of firmware bios that would report what it was. I have to leave another message for THoff, cause he has one, and I'm wondering what his reports.

Because I didn't really know how to judge what I could fit on one DVD, until I learned, I was going to create it all to the highest quality, save it to file and do twice the work by using DVDShrink to fit it on a DVD.

Too bad the programs couldn't estimate in real time how much room you have for a project as you add clips and slideshows if you are authoring in DV-AVI. My DVD Workshop seems to tell the project size ok when its already in mpeg. But I have to learn what is causing that program to re-encode what I believed were compliant files before I finalized.

I just sat through the entire tutorial on the canopus website for their editing program called Edius. Not so much for the program specifically, but in hopes I would catch on to some of the techniques and concepts.

I did get the sales pitch for that Edius program while speaking to the tech guy though. He said it was a 600 dollar program that is currently on a special for 200 bucks. This thing is so deep, that if I get it, at least I'll have a legitimate excuse for not knowing what I'm doing.