NTSC 3:2 pulldown - sync problems when authoring with DW2

davidjatt58 · Post by **davidjatt58** » Sun Oct 02, 2005 4:38 pm

Hi,

am using DVD Workshop 2.0 Express and am having severe audio sync problems authoring an NTSC disc containing converted PAL > NTSC 3:2 pulldown files.

Am following the following process for the conversion:

----

- demux the PAL MPG to video and audio using TMPGEnc Express
- using TMPGEnc Express resize demuxed video to be 720 x480 with 25FPS
- use DGPulldownto modify framerate of video file from 25 to be 29.97 FPS
- mux the resultant video file with the original demuxed audio

- author dvd using new mpg file

----

The resultant file plays perfectly (with no sync issues at all) in windows media player, it plays fine within the DVD Workshop 2.0 Express video player itself and it authors fine using another authoring tool I tested (TMPGEnd DVD Author - demo version). Only when I author with DVD Workshop do the sync problems arise.

- I have the latest patches applied to DW
- I don't have any other apps running
- my PC is AMD Athlon 3000 with 1GB mem running XP

Is this a known bug? is it being looked at? are there any work arounds?

any help would be much appreciated.

Devil · Post by **Devil** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 6:32 am

Have you tried importing your original PAL files into WS2 with the project settings for NTSC and simply burning from there? I'm not saying it will work outstandingly well, but I would like to know the results. If it's ok, it may be worthwhile going a stage farther with MSP8 or VS9: import from the original disk into a single file, convert to a low-loss AVI format, render into NTSC and author the final disk in WS2.

Reasoning: the fewer stages you go through in conversion the better and you are possibly experiencing drop frame problems (the difference between 29.97 and 30 fps) which can happen so easily.

I'm not saying that I'm offering a sure-fire cure but the results will give us a better idea of what is happening. FYI, I've never had any problems converting PAL DV AVI files to NTSC in MSP and then burning to DVD.

davidjatt58 · Post by **davidjatt58** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 9:55 pm

hi Devil,

Thanks for the suggestion - yeah, that was one of the first things I tried. Unfortunately the results from importing the original PAL files into WS2 with the project settings for NTSC are fairly jerky (not half as smooth a the Pull Down method I described) and it takes an absolute age to author (we're talking hours...).

I'm still mystified as to why I can author the files using a demo version of a less sophisticated authoring tool and not WS2.

does anyone know if Ulead have said that it does or doesn't support 3:2 pulldown? I can't find anything on the site or the release notes...

Devil · Post by **Devil** » Tue Oct 04, 2005 10:25 am

OK, we have established that the first part of my suggestions work, with the expected results. What about the second part, now?

skier-hughes · Post by **skier-hughes** » Tue Oct 04, 2005 3:21 pm

Try investing in Canopus Procoder Express.
Does proper pal>ntsc conversion, not the crap you are trying to do.
It has a fantastic render engine, makes superb mpeg's. You can do PAL avi to NTSC Mpeg2 in one go. Takes a while, mine normally runs at .3 real time, but every disc I've sent to the USA works like a dream. Virtually all of my customers havebbecome repeat customers.
Best bit is it's very cheap at around £60-£70, but if you don't mind downloading it you can buy from the USA store even cheaper, which is what I did.
These import like normal into an ntsc project and then do everything as normal.

Graham

davidjatt58 · Post by **davidjatt58** » Tue Oct 04, 2005 11:32 pm

Hi Devil,

taking the original PAL MPEG2 (I'm not ripping from DVD, I have MPEG2 PAL files to start with - capped from a Nebula DigiTV) and using TMPEGEnc to convert to NTSC produces a similar jerky NTSC MPEG2. Yes - authoring those files with WS2 does keep the audio in sync, but the result aren't great and are similar to just importing the PAL files into a WS2 NTSC project.

Graham - thanks for your suggestion, but I'm not sure I should spend another £60 when I can already convert to valid NTSC MPEG2 files that are in sync and run smoothly - just ONLY when authored by other less sophisticated tools than WS2. Comparing resultant files side by side - the conversion method thru DGpulldown I use gives far smoother movement than any of the all-in-one PAL>NTSC conversions (such as TMPGEnc) offer.

Devil · Post by **Devil** » Wed Oct 05, 2005 6:19 am

I did suggest, but you seem to have ignored it, converting your original MPEG-2 to a quasi-lossless AVI (DV or HuffYUV) - better still, doing your capture in AVI, if you can, rather than starting with a lossy MPEG file, converting the AVI to an NTSC AVI using the same codec, then re-encoding into a compliant NTSC MPEG-2 for burning. You must realise that MPEG formats are not designed for any form of editing and are lossy, at the best of times (there are a few exceptions that are not relevant in this thread).

I strongly recommend you capture in a lossless format in the first place, if you have to convert or even edit any more than simple cuts; they are designed to allow re-rendering, unlike mpx files.

skier-hughes · Post by **skier-hughes** » Wed Oct 05, 2005 10:44 am

davidjatt58 wrote: Graham - thanks for your suggestion, but I'm not sure I should spend another £60 when I can already convert to valid NTSC MPEG2 files that are in sync and run smoothly - just ONLY when authored by other less sophisticated tools than WS2. Comparing resultant files side by side - the conversion method thru DGpulldown I use gives far smoother movement than any of the all-in-one PAL>NTSC conversions (such as TMPGEnc) offer.

But what about the difference in the way the colour/chrominance/luminance is prepared for the two standards. This is done by a proper standards convertor. It's not just frame size and frame rate that makes an ntsc signal.
TMPG is not a standards convertor, I don't know DG pulldown so can't comment, but apps like this will never give proper results.

Besides time is money if you are in business, by now you could have downloaded procoder, shown it the mpeg2 file, put a blank dvd in the writer and the disc could be in the post

Not too worry.

I'll leave you to it.

Graham

the britisher · Post by **the britisher** » Wed Oct 05, 2005 4:24 pm

PMSL

OMG so true

davidjatt58 · Post by **davidjatt58** » Sat Oct 08, 2005 3:43 pm

Devil - I misunderstood your point about the lossless avi. Have now tried your suggestion of converting the original MPEG file to AVI and then to NTSC - the sound is synched fine, but the picture was not smooth.

(Just as an aside I am using the Nebula DigiTV USBCap card that outputs MPEG2 (basically the DVB stream) only - cap'ing direct into AVI is not possible.)

I have enclosed links below to the excerpt from an original PAL MPEG2 file I'm using for my tests and the converted one (NTSC 3:2 pulldown) that I am unable to author successfully with WS2 without the stuttering/sound sync probs.

If anyone would like to attempt to author it in WS2 and see for themselves the problem (and suggest any ideas why it could be a problem) or use their preferred PAL > NTSC methods (Graham - would be keen to see the output from procoder) I would be very interested in the results.

I still would like to know if WS2 is at fault or whether the NTSC file I have generated is - since the pullodwn file still (to my eye) has the smoother picture and authors fine in other packages. The key scene in the excerpt is the the character walking past a row of shops - note the shop window edges as they sweep past and compare the original, my 3:2 pulldown and any conversions you care to make. In all of the suggestions I have tried from the above posts, there is distinct juddering in the picture motion in the resultant files.

original PAL mpeg2 file 13.45 MB

Video : 21 MB, 8000 Kbps, 25.0 fps, 720*576 (2.21:1), MPG2 = MPEG 2 (SVCD/DVD)
Audio : 718 KB, 256 Kbps, 48000 Hz, 2 channels, 0x51 = Mpeg-1 audio Layer 2 [0xc0]

converted NTSC (3:2 pulldown) mpeg2 file 10.71 MB using method I described in my post

Video : 21 MB, 8000 Kbps, 29.970 fps, 720*480 (16:9), MPG2 = MPEG 2 (SVCD/DVD)
Audio : 718 KB, 256 Kbps, 48000 Hz, 2 channels, 0x51 = Mpeg-1 audio Layer 2 [0xc0]

skier-hughes · Post by **skier-hughes** » Sat Oct 08, 2005 5:59 pm

I'm downloading and will try it out as soon as I get a chance.

Graham

skier-hughes · Post by **skier-hughes** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 5:41 pm

Sorry been busy, but did it today if it's of any use

http://www.myvideoproblems.com/testfile ... 20ntsc.htm
Just used std procoder settings.