5.1 again

satty · Post by **satty** » Sat Oct 01, 2005 5:04 pm

Hello and sorry for my English

I think I've found a little mistake in the DVD Workshop 2 app. As you (the admins) said here some times, we can use a MPEG with 5.1 sound included, if it is DVD compatible.

Well... It is ALMOST correct

When you use a compatible DVD and 5.1 surround sound MPEG, the rear channels are MIXED. In fact, only selecting the MPEG and PREVIEWING it, it sounds with the rear channels mixed.

I've done 2 DVDs with this MPEG: one with the DVD Workshop 2, and the other one with the NeroVission Express. And the results are that the DVD created with the NeroVission sounds correctly, but the one created with the Workshop 2 sounds with the rear channels mixed.

The 5.1 track was created with the Adobe Audition 1.5, recording my own voice saying "left front, center, right front, left rear, right rear", saving it SIX times (48000 Hz, Mono, 32 Bit Float, PCM) and erasing the part of the wave in each file that not corresponds with the channel were the wave file would must sound (LFE has a completely silenced wave).

And finally created the 5.1 file with Sonic Foundry Soft Encode 1.0, and Multiplexed it with a MPEG video file with the TMPGEnc (created from an AVI to MPEG, from a cut with the same time of any of the soundwave files I've created and converted in MPEG DVD PAL format with the TMPEGEnc).

Could you correct this in a next update for the program? I've not asking for a new 5.1 encoder, but at least I'd like that my favourite app to create DVDs could do that I like...

And talking it about... When we have a new update?

Thanks in advance! And best regards!

Devil · Post by **Devil** » Sun Oct 02, 2005 7:10 am

I can't help you but I do find it strange that this happens, given that WS2 does not re-render compliant files. Are you sure that you have the audio set to not re-render?

I've only just installed 5.1 facilities and, when I have a moment (time is precious just now

), I'll repeat what you have done in MSP8 and I'll compare what happens with the inbuilt authorer and WS2.

satty · Post by **satty** » Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:29 am

Hi, and thanks for the reply

Yes, I've created the DVD with the option "Convert to disk template" UNmarked, even in the video and in the sound

I'm spanish, so I work in PAL (if this is useful to you)

Thanks again to do the job. This was a part to check how to do a real 5.1.
If you would, I can write a mini-tutorial to explain how to convert a normal stereo wave to 5.1 surround, with SPECTACULAR results (things you need: adobe audition -or an audio edition app that supports VST and DirectX plugins-, two free plugins, Sonic Foundry soft encode, TMPGEnc and, of course, Ulead DVD Workshop 2). If you would, let me see how can I send to you this mini-tutorial.

Best regards!

skier-hughes · Post by **skier-hughes** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 2:09 pm

I have a friend who has just asked me how to do this and as I haven't yet done it myself, I would be glad of any assistance in this matter.
Can you post your mini tutorial on here for all of us to read?

Cheers
Graham

satty · Post by **satty** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 6:10 pm

Of course. And remember that these are, by now, only TESTS. So, if you found another values -or other way- in order to increase the pan effect, I'll be glad to read it here.

First of all, you have to copy the original stereo file 6 times, and rename each as:

c.wav
lf.wav
rf.wav
lr.wav
rr.waw
LFE.wav

(or .mp3 if the original file is a MP3 one)

Let’s start working: open the Adobe Audition, and load the c.wav file. Convert it to MONO, 32 bit float, 48000 Hz using the EDIT / CONVERT SAMPLE TYPE option. Save it as .WAV with PCM compression. You have now the first one

Load now the LF.wav. Select the RIGHT channel clicking over the wave, but in the LOWER part of the wave. Once the wave was selected, apply the EFFECTS / AMPLITUDE / AMPLIFY- FADE with the slider at the TOP LEFT in order to ERASE these part of the wave. Convert now it to MONO, 32 bit float, 48000 Hz, as we’ve done with the c.wav one. Go again to EFFECTS / AMPLITUDE / AMPLIFY - FADE and clic over the CALCULATE NOW button. UNMARK the VIEW ALL SETTINGS IN DB option and REDUCE a 25% the result. Save it as .wav with PCM compression

Do the same process with the RF.WAV, but marking the LEFT part of the wave, clicking over it in the UPPER part or the wave.

Now, it comes the funny section. First of all, you have to download two plugins: the Analogx vocal remover (http://www.analogx.com/files/vremover.exe) and the Prosoniq Nortpole0 Ressonant VST plugin (http://www.prosoniq.net/pub/freebies/pc/NPOLE.ZIP)

Load now the LFE.wav file. Convert it to MONO, 32 bit Float, 48000 Hz and apply the VST Northpole0, with these parameters:

Cutoff at 65 Hz; Resonance at 99, with LP mode; Env follow at 99, with Attack at 34 and Release at 38; Dist at 0; Amt at 20; Time at 547 ms; and Feedback at 0

Now, go to EFFECTS / AMPLITUDE / AMPLIFY – FADE and click over CALCULATE NOW. Apply and save as habitual (.wav, PCM compression)

Load the LR.WAV. Apply the DirectX VocalRemover Plugin. Do now exactly the same as we did with the LF.WAV file, but in the last step DON’T REDUCE anything: when you click over CALCULATE NOW, APPLY the effect, and save as habitual

The same for RR.WAV: apply the VocalRemover plugin, and do the same that we did with the RF.wav, also without any sound reduction in the last step.

Now, you have the files ready to import in the SONIC FOUNDRY SOFT ENCODE, in order to create an .AC3 file with our new sound in 5.1. Really, that we’ve done is NOT a REAL 5.1. In fact, we’ve created a “270 degrees” sound: R ; R+L (or center); L ; L-R ; R-L; and the rumble channel. But the obtained final effect is very… effective.

Now, in order to use this .ac3 file in the DVD Workshop 2, you have to MULTIPLEX it with the video (And TMPEGenc is great to do it. That you need you'll find in FILE / MPEG TOOLS, under MULTIPLEX). If not, DVD Workshop 2 probably WILL REENCODE your sound, giving to you only a DIGITAL 2.0 SOUND (stereo again!). And DON’T FORGET TO UNMARK the CONVERT TO DISK TEMPLATE in video and in every sound channel you add to your project (I know, I know… in this way, the final proyect could be probably greater than the DVD you need to burn. Solution: save it to the Hard Disk and apply DVD SHRINK)

And remember: I’ve found that DVD Workshop 2 MIXES the rear channels (even ONLY loading the MPEG and previewing it). By this, until a patch appear, I recommend to use the NEROVISION in order to mount the DVD of the test… and pray a lot to obtain a patch for DVD Workshop2 to create the DVDs as we want.

Patience…

skier-hughes · Post by **skier-hughes** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 7:13 pm

Thanks very much.
Having just posted of a problem I have, I'll test this when I have a little free time and let you know how it goes.

But you've just given me a clue to my problem. Nerovision.....
For some reason it has never worked on my pc, and my son installed it to make a data dvd, I bet it's still on.

Graham

mdifilm · Post by **mdifilm** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:47 pm

Hello, I've composed a 5.1 sound dvd using DVD Workshop 2.0 without problem, here's what I learned during my 15 days pain

but worth it

This was for my short film A Joker's Card, which contain interactive menus, different audio tracks (commentary, stereo, 5.1, etc) and about 2 hours of video footages into one

For 5.1 this is what I know about DVD Workshop 2.

It can't be done, DVD Workshop 2 will convert your 5.1 wave file into 2.0 sound ac3 files

So, this is what one need to do with 5.1

You have to encode it into a ac3 file with OTHER programs and have it already encoded, then you bring it into DWS 2

Do NOT do ANYTHING to it within DWS 2, do not adjust the volume or trim the video, it must be IN as it is, or DWS will convert it to a 2 channel instead of keeping it intact

Now, when you burn to dvd or making it an ISO file, make sure the bitrate is the same (if you encode your 5.1 ac3 file with 384 bitrate, make sure it is the same in DWS) or again it will be encoded to 2.0 again

So, be careful every step and you should be fine, hope this help, I've done a lot of work with DWS and LOVING EVERY MINUTE OF IT!

Anyone got question, feel free to ask me via email as I hardly frequent this due unless I have problems I can't solve

(my email Johnny-at-mdifilm.com)

Johnny Wu
www.mdifilm.com

satty · Post by **satty** » Fri Nov 04, 2005 4:46 pm

Hello Johnny!

Well... The problem is STILL here: as you say, I have a MPEG with a 5.1 sound ALREADY encoded. (A MPEG video streaming + a 5.1 AC3 file multiplexed with TMPGEnc)

But if you LOAD this encoded file (or even WITHOUT load it, only mark it to PREVIEW BEFORE load it into the program; and PAY ATTENTION to the REAR speakers), you'll see that the sound is MIXED. So, in fact, we have a LF - C - RF - LFO - l+rRear - l+rRear result, with THE SAME wave in the two rear channels.
And... this is NOT a 5.1, isn't it?

Best regards!

mdifilm · Post by **mdifilm** » Mon Nov 07, 2005 5:21 pm

preview won't play it back on 5.1, I have to burn it on dvd-rw and test it out on an actual dvd player to know if it's playing back on 5.1 or not, it seems the program itself have some 'bugs' with the preview.

If after testing with standard dvd player and such and you have problem, then best bet, use Adobe Encore

I also wondered, have you played the video outside of ulead to see if it does play back in 5.1? it might be possible it was mixed in a certain way? Did TEMPGEnc mixed your back audio into a mix as well? I do know, if you have cut, trim, edit your file within Ulead DVD Workshop, you will have a 2 channel surround instead of 5.1 surround. Hence, that is why I created a 5.1 surround ac3 file outside of DVD Ulead Workshop and put it in and we tested with 5.1 systems and then it worked.

I don't think TMPGEnc can encode 5.1 ac3 files (when I did some searches, TMPGEnc was doing 2.1 ac3 files) but I could've been wrong.

I would say test your mpeg2 files (the one with ac3 5.1 surround sound) outside of any program (even with your computer's dvd-rom player software) and see if you can hear 5.1 right mixes.

Johnny

satty · Post by **satty** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 11:19 am

Hello again, Johnny

Of course I've tested the result in a DVD player connected to a 5.1 system. In two ways: one, with a DVD created with the DVD Workshop2 WITHOUT edit the video (Load the MPEG and, directly, save it as DVD), and with a DVD compatible MPEG. And, two, doing the same with the NeroVision Express, USING THE SAME MPEG.

The AC3 file has been created by me with 5 (really 6. There are also a LFO wave) MONO sounds, and the Soft Encode program. And it works perfect with the NeroVision DVD-RW created disk, NOT with the DVD Workshop2 one (in this, the rear channels sounds mixed, and this is what I'm trying to solve... with your help)

In fact, I prefer the DVD Workshop2 as the main app to create my DVDs, because it has GREATER options than the Nero one... except for this thing that it happens to my DVDs.

If you want, you can test by yourself one of my tests. You have at this URL the AC3 file:

http://sebafont.dyndns.org/test.ac3

You only need a video with 12 seconds long (an avi, by example). If you don't have any, get some AVI with the Virtualdub and mark 12 seconds. Save it as an AVI. Load TMPEGEnc and convert this video in a M2V + WAV files (as PAL DVD, it is habitually my kind of files). When you have this two files, go, in the TMPEGEnc to FILE/MPEG Utilities and go to MULTIPLEX. Load the M2V file, the AC3 File and click RUN

Now you have a MPEG file with REAL 5.1.

Use the DVD Workshop2 to create the DVD, and test it.
Then, use the NeroVision Express and test again.

It MUST sound a tone in this order: front left - center - front right - rear right - rear left - LFO.

Has been impossible to me to get this result with the DVD workshop2... could you help me a little more?

Thanks!

mdifilm · Post by **mdifilm** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:58 pm

I don't need to test

Because I did have created a 20 mins long short film with 1. 5.1 surround and 2. stereo, plus 2 commentary tracks

the finished product was tested by my audio engineer with his surround system set at his home theatre to make sure it is 5.1 and it does.

Like you I have different wave files and I merged them and converted into an ac3 files

WIth DVD WOrkshop, you must make sure the settings there is the same as the ac3 files you are attaching it to your video clips

Make sure the bitrate is the same (If you encoded the file as ac3, 384kbps) then make sure the template is set as that. (that 'check-mark' thing many said to turn it off to not to use the template, didn't work for me so to be safe, I just make sure the bitrate is same).

You can't adjust the volume of the video clip within workshop, if the audio is low, you must make the changes outside, you can't trim the video either within DVD WOrkshop (everything must be done outside) also, I didn't have the 'make stereo surround option checked.

So, basically, you use DVD WOrkshop to load the video/audio file and 'past-through' it (without changes) and it shoudl've worked.

It worked for me. Now, if you have the video and audio in one multiplixed file, you *might* encounter issues, which I guess that's wha tyou are experiencing, best to do, have a video file and an ac3 file not mpeg2 file

Ulead DVD Workshop seems to do bypass the file if it's ac3.

Hope this work.

Johnny Wu

Drood · Post by **Drood** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 12:41 pm

I guess this is where the problem is.

satty wrote:....in order to use this .ac3 file in the DVD Workshop 2, you have to MULTIPLEX it with the video (And TMPEGenc is great to do it. …

DVDWS accepts both elementary streams and program streams. You don't need to multiplex audio and video before using DVDWS.

I put 5.1 .ac3 file and .mpg file into DVDWS and the result was fine.