720 x 576 Frame size option missing for MPEG 4

[patflan]

Hi,

I am trying to convert PAL DV format files (originally captured from minidv tapes and analogue video 8 tapes) to MPEG 4 format using VideoStudio Pro 2021.

In case anybody is wondering why - I have already converted these files to Mpeg2 but now would like to also convert the dv "masters" to MPEG 4, to further future proof play ability on any device.

(Already I have come across one cloud service that no longer accepts Mpeg2 which I always believed to be future proof-but now it looks like Mpeg 4 is the go to format of the day!)

As the files are PAL region the frame size is 720 x 576 ( 4:3 Aspect Ratio) but Videostudio does not have this Frame size in any of the drop down menus for H 264 compression to Mpeg 4 even when custom is selected.

Also the user defined frame size is grayed out.

But it does have the 720 x 480 option which is the NTSC standard!

My preference are set to PAl so why is Videostudio giving the equivalent NTSC option but not the PAL?

I am a little fuzzy about Frame sizes and Aspect ratio so my next question is what would be the affect on display (on a hd tv for example) if I render these files as 720 x 480 ?

Or since I do not seem to have any other choice should I upscale to something like 1280 x 720 but set the display aspect ratio flag to 4:3 - and how would this zooming up affect the display quality?

I had assumed that to preserve quality/picture size that the output frame size should match the input but Videostudio does not appear to give me that option.

But in the end I would appreciate if someone could explain to me why there are NTSC options for frame size but not PAL in h 264 conversion - I know I am missing something here as I do not fully understand the ins and outs of all the different frame sizes

Many thanks in advance.

[Ken Berry]

I can't explain why VS doesn't offer this under the straight mp4 options. I confess I hadn't noticed before, but that is because I haven't used standard definition frame sizes for several years.

Looking at mp4 options under Customize, I see that you *can* get 720 x 576 if, in the Compression tab of the dialogue box which appears when you press Settings, you choose M4V-SP or M4V-ASP as the codec. But then you are stuck with a low (and I fear correspondingly low quality) maximum bitrate of 2000 kbps.

But have you thought about using .mov as your output format? As you may know, .mov is just a wrapper format which can use various codecs to encode the video. On that same dialogue box, on the Compression tab you can, for instance choose H.264 as the output codec, and on the General tab, under the Standard frame sizes, 720 x 576 is available. So you still achieve encoding to an mp4 standard, but it will just be calling itself something different.

[asik1]

It's EZ and less them a minute to correct but Corel for some stupid thought will not do so for years.
You should open a ticket with support.

[patflan]

Hi Ken,

Thank you for that useful tip about using mov instead.
I had not realized that it too can encode to mp4 standard.
As I was saying, I just need to update my video files to a more modern standard so that there is a wider field of devices they could be played on.
Even if I do find another way to convert to mpeg 4, the mov option could be a third format along with mpeg2 to further ensure future playability.

Yes I did notice those M4V options but I was not sure of what they were and and with the lower bit rate assumed they were some sort of earlier version of H 264 compression.
And even though a lot of my old home video files ( up to 30 years!) would not be great quality, compared to todays standards, I still would like to render to the max possible degree until there is no more benefit - so I figure I should be aiming between 4000 to 8000 kbps.

Thanks asik1 for your advise.

As I was saying, I am new to rendering to other formats other than Mpeg2 and DVD so it is good to know that this issue may be an oversight on VideoStudio rather than my lack of knowledge on digital frame sizes.
I can see how the 720 x 576 Pal frame size may have been dropped as it is now an older format with dwindling numbers using it - but then they did include the old NTSC frame rate of 720 x 480!
Also I am sure there are a lot of people out there like me still ,who would like to covert their boxes of of old format home movie tapes to a more modern playable format, apart from DVD which in my opinion may soon die out too.

I will get in touch with support on this issue as you suggest and post when I hear back.

[lata]

A little more info

Your original DV video will use Frame interlacing as Lower Field First, Mpeg4 will use Progressive aka Frame Based, converting from Interlaced to Progressive I do not think will cause any issues, just to be aware of that.
The Frame rate is more important to be retained as original 25fps

The Frame Size…..
for DV.avi and Mpeg2 Pal is 720 x 576 and is anamorphic, that is 720 x 576 does not calculate as 4:3 nor 16:9 yet can be used for both as the pixels are not square but stretched rectangular to fit the video frame or 4:3. (Non-Square pixel Rendering)
Basically do not worry about the frame sizes as they are stretched anyway.

Personally I would opt for converting the Mpeg2 to 1280 x 720 or 1920 x 1080 both being 16:9 so your Mpeg will fit vertically but with a border to the left and right.
Two options to filling the border
1 / zoom into the Mpeg2 will lose some detail top and bottom
2 / Use the FX Background Blur filter, this uses colours from the video to blur and fill the background.

Video Format
You can test these for yourself to see which is suitable / best quality
Mpeg4
Mov
AVC/H264 renders to MTS files.
My preference would be HD 1920 x 1080

Run a few tests using short samples to see which is best
If you have access to the original DV.Avi footage would be a better option for converting.

I converted my video although DV.Avi to Hd 1920 x 1080 AVC/H.264 with good results, ( Bluray compliant) I have to say it was a few years ago now.

[patflan]

Thank you Trevor for that additional information.
Your reply has answered some other questions I was not clear about as I started to read up about converting my sd dv video to a newer format.

I will take on board your suggestions but I have some questions first, based on what you said, which would help me further if you can.

Firstly ,yes-I have all the already captured all the original dv to files (I used a pass through dv camcorder for the analogue tapes) so I am currently editing and converting to mpeg2 but I am now planning to make an additional mpeg4 copy directly from the original dv and not from the mpeg2.

Q1 Interlacing.
I have been reading up on this and a lot of people are saying not to de-interlace with Frame based? as there is a loss of information.
This is why I was depending on Videostudio as it seems to offer Field based compression for mpeg4 since the other programs such as Handbrake do not and seem to have a huge learning curve.
But having said that and taking into account the lower quality of my originals, I do not think I will notice any difference if I go with progressive options in VideoStudio as you suggest. I could test this by simply looking at the results on a large screen. (Have you any suggestion of format if I do want to try to keep the interlaced? Apologies if this does not make sense as I am still trying to learn about all of this.)
Although I note also that you have got good results with Frame based from DV files.

Q2 Frame Size
You are suggesting to change up from 720x576 to bigger frame sizes of 1280/1920.
This would solve a lot of my problems with trying to find a format that matches 720x 576.
I thought that I would have to always keep the frame size the same as the original to avoid display issues.
I think you are telling me that I do not need to be so hung up on this 720 x 576 as the bigger frame sizes will also work?
But will this not blow up the image to show worse quality or is that a 1280 TV will do this anyway so in effect you are just matching the source with the TV?
I read also somewhere that is why it is best to render 720 x 576 to highest quality possible as the TV will blow it up anyway to show the faults.

Q3 Aspect Ratio
My videos are a mixture of 4:3 and 16:9 aspect ratio but mostly 4:3.
Are you saying that I should convert these with a 16:9 frame size and then tweak to get rid of the borders.
Can I not select a 4:3 Frame size to avoid this or does this relate to Q2 where these higher frame sizes do not have the 4:3 option?

Q4
AVC/H 264
I was also wondering about this as an option but I had assumed that this was only for burning to BluRay.
Can this format play on its own through a standard media player in a similar way that Mpeg2 do not need to be burned to a DVD player to view.
(Again my own bias here - I am thinking not want be reliant on the bluray or dvd for playback as I feel that even though they could produce better viewing quality that they might fade away as a viewing format)

Apologies for all the detail in those questions and I am not expecting to have everything answered but would appreciate any more snippets you can clarify to save me hours of trawling the internet.

[lata]

Just a quick reply
If you have DV.avi files then use those to create a project and edit.
Once you have completed the editing then you can do a few things

1 / As its DV that project can be exported back to the camcorder Mini DV Tape, you will need a Firewire card IEEE connection, I think you have already used that to transfer the DV to the pc, is that correct.
I doubt you would wish to export back, just an option thats available.

2 / From Share we can choose Mpeg4 ( interlaced) – select the MPEG-4 AVC (1920 x 1080, 25p, 15Mbps) profile, then press +, this will allow you to create a new profile, I change the name adding My to the beginning ( My MPEG-4 (1920 x 1080, 50i, lower Field 15Mbps)), easy for me to Id the profile
From the General tab change the Frame Type from Frame Based to Lower Field First
Use that profile to render your project.
Creates Mpeg4 Interlaced, I have to say I do not think I have used this option.

3 / Using AVC H.264 as above for Mpeg4 to create a new profile.
Using this profile AVC (1920 x 1080, 50i, 20Mbps)
Change to My AVC (1920 x 1080, 50i, Lower Field 16Mbps)
This will render to Motion Transport Stream video and can play on most if not all media devices. (m2t)

Your task is to find the right combination that creates a good quality video.
Whether you choose to import the 4:3 Dv.avi into a 16:9 project, then fill the border is probably the easiest option. The above 2 / 3 use 16:9

Note 50i is the way the program id’s a 25fps interlaced video

[patflan]

Hi Trevor,

Thank you -your "quick reply" together with your previous post and Kens has given me the precise information I need now after spending weeks looking up the internet trying to pinpoint the answer to this.

I like also that you have listed a few options which I can try to see which gives the best result as you suggest.

Yes I did the firewire thing and went through a phase of purchasing lots of firewire cables and firewire pc cards to match my changing PC - in order to capture all those tapes which I eventually did. Then I thought that was the hard part over!!

I did for a while start to export the edited files back to dv tape as archive but then that meant keeping a working dv tape player.
I settled on hard drive backup as it became cheaper to double up or transfer regularly to new hard drives rather than keep tape machines in working order.
(But I still have all the tapes and a few working camcorders just in case)

Anyway thanks again- I am looking forward to trying out those various options very shortly.

[alanball]

I have been going through as similar process as patflan, of converting mpeg-2 videos I took in Isreal in 19090 which have been converted from AVI a few years back, and needed re-editing after doing them originally in HVS.

As patflan has not come back with any details on tests of various setups I thought I would share my results based on Trevor's recommendations.

I imported the mpeg2 file directly, as per the file specification 720x576 (not 16 x 9).
I then zoomed in by .05 to get rid of ragged edges of the video.

For the output settings I used the Meg-4 1920 x 1080, 50i, lower field, and changed the 15Mps to 10Mps which reduced the final file size without any decernable reduction in quality as I could see, when shown on the TV.

I noted that the save setting, still showed 15Mps even though I reduced it to 10Mps. But testing both settings it was obvious by the file size the setting had changed.

I also compared the video as Mpeg-2 with the same in and output settings and was amazed what a difference using the Mpeg-4 conversion made to the quality of the picture. Hope this can help someone in the future.