Any way to get the scaling factor of an object?

[paulzimmer]

Sorry if this has been asked - the search function doesn't work for me. Maybe because I just registered?

Anyway, I often seem to be in the position of overlaying two (or more) objects that originated from the same source. One has already been scaled, and I want the other to be scaled exactly the same. Is there any way to ask the tool, "what is the scale factor for this object?" I mean, the tool knows, right? It's in the database somewhere, I assume.

If you have the already-scaled object as another image, you can calculate it yourself. But this is not always the case.

Recent example: I took a source drawing in color, then turned it to B&W. I then trimmed it the way I wanted, then did cut/paste into my main design. Then I scaled it. I didn't save the original trimmed object from which I did the cut. Then, I came along later and wanted to overlay part of this with the original color design. I did a bunch of select/invert select, etc to get down to just the part I wanted, then cut/pasted into my main design. Now, I want to scale this color object EXACTLY the same way I scaled the original one. I run into stuff like this all the time. Is there a way to get the "scale factor" (net, after all re-scales) for an object so I can then apply this to another object?

Thanks,
Paul Zimmer

[migf1]

Hello paul!

I'm not sure I got the question right, I think you are asking how to get the dimensions of only the visible part of a layer?

If so, the only way I am aware of is a little cumbersome workaround, but it works and if you get used to it can be done relatively quickly with shortcuts.

1. Create a new temporary image with just the already scaled layer.
One way is to Ctrl+C (Copy) the layer, then Ctrl+Shift+V (Paste as a new Image). Another way is to drag the layer out of the layers-palette onto an empty area of the workspace (or on the tabbed documents bar at the top if you are working with tabbed documents).

2. Shift+I (Image->Image Information) or Shift+S (Image->Resize) are 2 options where their dialog shows the dimensions of this new temporary image (which are actually the dimensions of the scaled layer in the main image). You can copy to your clipboard either the width or the height from the dialog and cancel out (normally the new image to be overlayed - let's call it imageX - should have the same aspect ratio).

You can now load imageX into PSP and resize it: Shift+S, then paste in the width field (or height filed) the corresponding value you had copied in the clipboard (ensure the Lock aspect ratio option is enabled, so PSP auto calcs the other field).

Then bring the resized imageX into your original image as a new layer (mouse dragging, or Ctrl+C/Ctrl+V).

Finally use the options in the Object->Align menu to align it precisely with the other layer.

PS. If anyone knows a better/faster alternative, please share.

[LeviFiction]

Ever since I want to say X4 or X5 PSP has had the ability to use the Objects menu on both vectors and rasters. So if you want to make two raster layers the same size you simply need to select them both in the layers palette and then go Objects -> Make Same Size -> Both.

You cannot get the "scale factor" because that's not stored anywhere after the effect is applied. The effect of scaling or "transforming" with the pick tool is a destructive edit. Once you've accepted the change it is applied directly to the object.

[migf1]

I'll be damned! Thank you very much Levi, another awesome tip!

[paulzimmer]

Thank you both Migf1 and LeviFiction for you quick, helpful replies.

I wasn't aware of the "Make Same Size" option - good tip. Of course, it only applies if both objects are the same except for scale. In the case I described, one is a subset of the other. Ditto Mifg1's suggestion - but it's a great way to get the object's information.

Levi's info about the tool NOT storing the information is very much to the point. I was assuming (based on my experience with video editing in PowerDirector), that the tool mostly just stored "pointers" and data about objects rather than the objects themselves. I guess not.

Combined, the two suggestions point me in a new direction, albeit a time-intensive one. I could take the image that's in the main project, go through similar manipulations as I did to the new (color) object until it matched the new object, then use Migf1's trick to get the size info of each. Then I could use Make Same Size > Both, then go see how the info changed. I could then calculate the scaling factor.

[Jean-Luc]

Paul,
could you explain with an example? Post some images here.
Perhaps another method could be applied if we see what you do.

[paulzimmer]

OK, I made a simple example and put it on google drive here: https://drive.google.com/open?id=12UtGN ... 48c8lmiD5t

There are 3 files:
original - the original graphic
BandW - black-and-white version of original
master - the project itself

master has a version of BandW that has been cropped and scaled. The problem is how to fit the red dress (extracted from original) over the top of the black-and-white dress exactly.

I suspect I'm going to learn a lot from this exercise. I've been using PSP for many years off-handedly, but I've never really taken the effort to master it.

Thanks,
Paul

[migf1]

Hi Paul,

I think a different workflow would make things much simpler. For example, having the red dress into master as a layer (or even better keeping a mask of the dress) before cropping and scaling.

[migf1]

However, this particular example is not that hard to do what you need, but in the general case I wouldn't go this route.

So I just made it work by surrounding the cropped dress with guides, then promoting a selection out of it, then using Object->Align->Top,Left, then using Object->Make same size->Both

Here is the result: http://prntscr.com/s1vkbo (I also had to sligthly stretch it with the Pick tool, width-wise though)
Ctrl+Shift+P promotes the current selection to its own layer: https://gyazo.com/6116b39b3f728909c230f9fddb9df289

Hope it helps.

[LeviFiction]

Interesting question.

Honestly depending on what your end intention is I wouldn't even want to do this at all. You can easily just select all of the skin-tones and make them B&W and never have to worry about aligning layers. Then take that end result and crop and resize to your needs. Unless you specifically need to have the dress on its own layer. In which case I would still do the cropping and resizing first, then separate the dress after the fact.

And on that note, the fastest method for aligning the dress is to just decrease the opacity of the dress, and move and scale in increments until it roughly matches. You can probably be done in about five or six clicks.

Another option I can offer is a bit odd but could at least help. Edit History.

PSP when you save to PSPImage format saves your edit history in the metadata of the file. So when I go into your Master image and go to the menu Image -> Image Information

I can see an "Edit History" tab. This shows everything you've done including the pick tool and crop commands you used to arrive at the current B&W location. It's not immediately useful because the Pick tool doesn't save Scale information, it saves the final location of the bounding box. But the math is easy. The bounding box starts with handle 1 being the bottom left node, the second is the top left node, and so on clockwise around the layer.

The first edit you made was to move the handles like so. These are represented as x,y pairs.
'Handle1': (1226,1940),
'Handle2': (1226,273),
'Handle3': (1853,273),
'Handle4': (1853,1940),

And they are positioned on a much larger canvas than you currently have in the master image so the values themselves don't help. But if we subtract the X's and Y's we can get the new width and height of the layer after you applied the change.

1940 - 273 = 1667 High
1853-1226 = 627 Wide

Your original image is 854x1479. So you made it taller and thinner changing the aspect ratio. You can work out the scale.

You again used the pick tool to make the size 1896x713 (calculated from the handle positions). Which a quick division shows they are the same aspect ratio so you scaled it uniformly this time. Again you can work out the ratio change there.

You actually cropped the whole image and I don't know what the original image proportions were. So won't go over that. You saved, and the rest of the history seems to be trying to get the dress into place.

[paulzimmer]

Hi Paul,

I think a different workflow would make things much simpler. For example, having the red dress into master as a layer (or even better keeping a mask of the dress) before cropping and scaling.

I'm not sure I know what you mean. If you mean, "know in advance that you're going to want to do something later with the object you're about to crop and scale", well, I rarely know this in advance. And doing this by default seems like it would create an mess.

[paulzimmer]

However, this particular example is not that hard to do what you need, but in the general case I wouldn't go this route.

So I just made it work by surrounding the cropped dress with guides, then promoting a selection out of it, then using Object->Align->Top,Left, then using Object->Make same size->Both

Here is the result: http://prntscr.com/s1vkbo (I also had to sligthly stretch it with the Pick tool, width-wise though)
Ctrl+Shift+P promotes the current selection to its own layer: https://gyazo.com/6116b39b3f728909c230f9fddb9df289

Hope it helps.

Oooh, now I'm learning something! This technique isn't the precise, no fudging solution I was looking for with knowing the scale factor, but it's a lot quicker and easier than my usual "paste it down, drag it to the area and start fiddling" approach.

By the way, how exactly did you do "surrounding the cropped dress with guides"? I used the selection box, but it's difficult to get right, and I couldn't find a way to adjust it after the initial attempt (there are no drag box or anything). I don't often use the selection box, but your suggestion is opening up my eyes to the possibilities...

BTW, this was just a cobbled-together example. The real case has a much more complicated "red dress", but I can't post the graphics publicly. But your technique didn't require going through the dozens of steps to select the target object precisely. Very good. I'm learning!

Thanks!
Paul

[migf1]

You are very welcome Paul, I am glad it proved helpful.

You can create guides by dragging the mouse starting it from within a ruler (View->Rulers, if you don't have them visible). Like this: https://gyazo.com/d024bae9f92cfd7db844a23661b1cd64

Once created, Rulers can be moved by dragging their handles inside the ruler area. You can even right-click on their handles and manually set their position, and change their color.

So, I created 4 guides touching the 4 corners of the dress, then I used the Rectangle selection tool to select the inner area defined by the guides. Then I promoted that selection to a new layer, So now in the layers palette I had the promoted layer (along with the layer of the red dress). By selecting them both (the promoted layer first) I could use the Object->Align and Object->Make Same Size commands. The red dress probably had a slightly different aspect ratio though.. because it didn't align exactly. I had to slightly stretch it width-wise with the Pick tool.

Greetings!

[paulzimmer]

Interesting question.

Honestly depending on what your end intention is I wouldn't even want to do this at all. You can easily just select all of the skin-tones and make them B&W and never have to worry about aligning layers. Then take that end result and crop and resize to your needs. Unless you specifically need to have the dress on its own layer. In which case I would still do the cropping and resizing first, then separate the dress after the fact.

And on that note, the fastest method for aligning the dress is to just decrease the opacity of the dress, and move and scale in increments until it roughly matches. You can probably be done in about five or six clicks.

Another option I can offer is a bit odd but could at least help. Edit History.

PSP when you save to PSPImage format saves your edit history in the metadata of the file. So when I go into your Master image and go to the menu Image -> Image Information

I can see an "Edit History" tab. This shows everything you've done including the pick tool and crop commands you used to arrive at the current B&W location. It's not immediately useful because the Pick tool doesn't save Scale information, it saves the final location of the bounding box. But the math is easy. The bounding box starts with handle 1 being the bottom left node, the second is the top left node, and so on clockwise around the layer.

The first edit you made was to move the handles like so. These are represented as x,y pairs.
'Handle1': (1226,1940),
'Handle2': (1226,273),
'Handle3': (1853,273),
'Handle4': (1853,1940),

And they are positioned on a much larger canvas than you currently have in the master image so the values themselves don't help. But if we subtract the X's and Y's we can get the new width and height of the layer after you applied the change.

1940 - 273 = 1667 High
1853-1226 = 627 Wide

Your original image is 854x1479. So you made it taller and thinner changing the aspect ratio. You can work out the scale.

You again used the pick tool to make the size 1896x713 (calculated from the handle positions). Which a quick division shows they are the same aspect ratio so you scaled it uniformly this time. Again you can work out the ratio change there.

You actually cropped the whole image and I don't know what the original image proportions were. So won't go over that. You saved, and the rest of the history seems to be trying to get the dress into place.

Way cool! I didn't know about the edit history! I've used undo/redo, but I didn't know it saved all that data. That's great.

Now LeviFiction's "workflow" comment is making more sense. I tend to pull stuff out to another tab to work on them (because undo sometimes doesn't), but I rarely save those intermediate projects. Maybe I should do that as a matter of course? Or maybe I should do it inside the tool on duplicated layers.

But, then, my current project (a book cover) has about 20 visible layers, and nearly as many "historical" layers (other design options that I don't want to lose).

How do other people work? If you're going to go hacking around on an object (cutting out bits and pieces, adding more background with clone brush and/or cut/paste, etc), do you do this in another tab?

Thanks,
Paul

[LeviFiction]

Unfortunately the more you work on an image the more unweildy the history will get. The history will also only be available after you save. Without the ability to add comments to the history it's very easy to get lost in the details. So while it is useful, it's only useful to a point.

There is also the history palette. The history palette is often seen like just an easy way to undo multiple steps but it's a pretty handy tool. It shows all of the steps you've taken this session. Allows you to undo specific items. And create quick scripts to repeat tasks quickly. What's more if you right-click on an action and hit copy from the menu and paste it into notepad or something like that, you can see what parameters were used during a specific operation.

As for my normal workflow. Honestly I haven't made anything in forever. I have been focusing on scripts for the past few years. If I don't know what I want I will do one of two things. I will either work as non-destructively as possible (adjustment layers, masks, etc) or I will develop the technique I want to use and just reperform the steps not worrying about being exact.