Using proxies and applying a script as you call it is exactly what we are doing today in Videostudio -- there is nothing bizarre about it. A Videostudio Project (.VSP file) is exactly that, a list of assets and editing actions. The only difference with Mediastudio proxies is that when you do your render, the high-quality HD versions are used instead of the proxies.
Also, the use of proxies is totally optional. If you prefer editing HD in situ and your machine and patience can handle it, more power to you.
High Definition Video
Moderator: Ken Berry
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jchunter
Torsten,
I understood you to say that the HD editor displays results of each edit step (say, an STV of a section of the video file) only in 720x480 (the SD proxy). The individual actions to accomplish the edit step are saved, with the expectation that these same actions, when applied to the HD file will accomplish the same result. This is quite abit more complicated than today's VS project file, which only contains pointers to the completed results of edit steps.
Thus the HD script is more complicated than today's VS project file - and IMHO, much more likely to fail. Since we have had users who have had corupt elements in their project files and played hell trying to find out which one was corrupt, I reacted with the word "bizarre." I would sooner see a frontal attack on the performance issue itself by developing new, more efficient algorithms - perhaps utilizing the extra power of dual CPU cores.
However, if MS allows one to turn off the proxy, that would satisfy me, for starters.
John
I understood you to say that the HD editor displays results of each edit step (say, an STV of a section of the video file) only in 720x480 (the SD proxy). The individual actions to accomplish the edit step are saved, with the expectation that these same actions, when applied to the HD file will accomplish the same result. This is quite abit more complicated than today's VS project file, which only contains pointers to the completed results of edit steps.
Thus the HD script is more complicated than today's VS project file - and IMHO, much more likely to fail. Since we have had users who have had corupt elements in their project files and played hell trying to find out which one was corrupt, I reacted with the word "bizarre." I would sooner see a frontal attack on the performance issue itself by developing new, more efficient algorithms - perhaps utilizing the extra power of dual CPU cores.
However, if MS allows one to turn off the proxy, that would satisfy me, for starters.
John
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THoff
Yes, you don't have to use proxies, but I suspect most people who edit HD will use them.
MS 8 doesn't seem to take advantage of dual-core processors too well, at least not in the testing I've done on my Pentium D 840 EE system with SD content. I can understand that Videostudio doesn't do it (yet), but I was hoping that Mediastudio would take an important step in this direction.
MS 8 doesn't seem to take advantage of dual-core processors too well, at least not in the testing I've done on my Pentium D 840 EE system with SD content. I can understand that Videostudio doesn't do it (yet), but I was hoping that Mediastudio would take an important step in this direction.
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jchunter
Snooping on the Media Studio Pro forum, I found the following post with some additional information about "Smart Proxy" processing on Media Studio Pro 8 (still in beta test):
http://phpbb.ulead.com.tw/EN/viewtopic. ... t=sony+hc1
This implies that Smart Proxy processing is not available in earlier versions.
Looks as if Video Studio users can upgrade to MSP7 for $99 and will probably get a deal on an upgrade to MSP8. If anyone is in a hurry to do HD, MSP is probably a faster path than waiting for Video Studio.
John
Edit: Even more interesting is that Ulead has made the beta version of MSP8 available for download at http://www.ulead.com/msp/runme.htm
Its huge. I wonder if I can get a CD...
http://phpbb.ulead.com.tw/EN/viewtopic. ... t=sony+hc1
This implies that Smart Proxy processing is not available in earlier versions.
Looks as if Video Studio users can upgrade to MSP7 for $99 and will probably get a deal on an upgrade to MSP8. If anyone is in a hurry to do HD, MSP is probably a faster path than waiting for Video Studio.
John
Edit: Even more interesting is that Ulead has made the beta version of MSP8 available for download at http://www.ulead.com/msp/runme.htm
Its huge. I wonder if I can get a CD...
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jchunter
Here are some quick takes from installing the Ulead HDV plugin into VS9:
(1) I can confirm that the installation overwrites the entire VS9 user library file (the whole 9.0 directory in C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Application Data\Ulead Systems\Ulead Video Studio\9.0) for no apparent reason. Ulead did not install a single high definition video clip to test the HDV plug. If you save your VS_video.dat and VS_image.dat files, be sure to save them somewhere else or they will be deleted.
(2) The Tools Menu/Change Capture Plug-in now shows the Ulead HDV Capture Plugin as a selectable choice.
(3) The Project Properties/Compression Tab now shows Frame sizes of 1280x720, 1440x1080, and 1020x1080. The Video bitrate does not show a selectable 25Mbps video bitrate, but will allow you to key in that value.
(4) I inserted a short mpeg2 clip of 720x480 into the timeline and Used Create Video file to upconvert to different HD formats: When I selected the Mpeg2 HD template, it preselected property values of 1440x1080, 16x9, VBR = 25Mbps, Upper Field First, and Mpeg Audio. The last two properties were curious because my video clips were Lower Field First and Dolby Audio. I could not override the preselected values. The resulting upconverted video file showed the proper property values and previewed OK. It did not show much increase in file size – not surprising because the upconvert did not add any resolution to the video.
(5) I also upconverted using Custom settings to 1440x1080 LFF and 1920x1080, LFF, with no problems. I was unable to select Dolby audio even in the Custom settings. This has to be a bug.
(6) No crashes. Encouraging.
Further tests will have to wait until I can download some .m2t HDV video files.
John
(1) I can confirm that the installation overwrites the entire VS9 user library file (the whole 9.0 directory in C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Application Data\Ulead Systems\Ulead Video Studio\9.0) for no apparent reason. Ulead did not install a single high definition video clip to test the HDV plug. If you save your VS_video.dat and VS_image.dat files, be sure to save them somewhere else or they will be deleted.
(2) The Tools Menu/Change Capture Plug-in now shows the Ulead HDV Capture Plugin as a selectable choice.
(3) The Project Properties/Compression Tab now shows Frame sizes of 1280x720, 1440x1080, and 1020x1080. The Video bitrate does not show a selectable 25Mbps video bitrate, but will allow you to key in that value.
(4) I inserted a short mpeg2 clip of 720x480 into the timeline and Used Create Video file to upconvert to different HD formats: When I selected the Mpeg2 HD template, it preselected property values of 1440x1080, 16x9, VBR = 25Mbps, Upper Field First, and Mpeg Audio. The last two properties were curious because my video clips were Lower Field First and Dolby Audio. I could not override the preselected values. The resulting upconverted video file showed the proper property values and previewed OK. It did not show much increase in file size – not surprising because the upconvert did not add any resolution to the video.
(5) I also upconverted using Custom settings to 1440x1080 LFF and 1920x1080, LFF, with no problems. I was unable to select Dolby audio even in the Custom settings. This has to be a bug.
(6) No crashes. Encouraging.
Further tests will have to wait until I can download some .m2t HDV video files.
John
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THoff
To me, that is surprising, because the bitrate of HDV is much higher than for DVD-compatible MPEG2 files. It's not the resolution that determines the file size -- ultimately, it is the bitrate multiplied by the duration.jchunter wrote:(4) I inserted a short mpeg2 clip of 720x480 into the timeline and Used Create Video file to upconvert to different HD formats: When I selected the Mpeg2 HD template, it preselected property values of 1440x1080, 16x9, VBR = 25Mbps, Upper Field First, and Mpeg Audio. The last two properties were curious because my video clips were Lower Field First and Dolby Audio. I could not override the preselected values. The resulting upconverted video file showed the proper property values and previewed OK. It did not show much increase in file size – not surprising because the upconvert did not add any resolution to the video.
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maddrummer3301
- Posts: 2507
- Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:24 pm
- Location: US
John,
Try making a HD slideshow since the source material is high resolution same as HD. I think you'll like the results of a HD slideshow.
Make a SD and a HD to compare.
I've found upconverting a SD file is still re-sampling.
Same as taking a CD/44.1khz audio file and re-sampling to 24bit 96khz.
The original sounds better.
For best results convert DV files.
MD
Try making a HD slideshow since the source material is high resolution same as HD. I think you'll like the results of a HD slideshow.
Make a SD and a HD to compare.
I've found upconverting a SD file is still re-sampling.
Same as taking a CD/44.1khz audio file and re-sampling to 24bit 96khz.
The original sounds better.
For best results convert DV files.
MD
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jchunter
Torsten,
I assume that the mpeg2 compression algorithm was efficient enough to eliminate most of the redundant extra pixels in the upconverted larger frames…
MD,
I can confirm that jpegs rendered at 1440x1080 have MUCH better resolution than when rendered at 720x480!
I did the following:
(1) Placed my upconverted video clip in the timeline of a new project and let it set project properties to match: Mpeg2 1440x1080, 16x9, Frame Based*, 25Mbps, Mpeg audio.
(2) Pushed the Quality slider to 100%.
(3) Set Preference Default Frame Type to Frame-Based, Image Resampling to Best
(4) Inserted jpeg images of a resolution chart (2288x1728) and a dozen or so digital photos (2048x1536) into the timeline. Project length = 1minute.
(5) Created Video File using Same As Project. Rendering took 5minutes and 5 seconds. File size = 190MB.
(6) Tried to play back in PowerDVD, WMP 10, Quick Time. None worked. Can playback in VS9 using “clip” playback. Resolution = 5.5-6.0 horizontally and vertically on the res. chart image. All still images are VERY sharp.
For comparison, I created a new project at 720x480, 16x9 LFF**, 8Mbps, Mpeg audio video file with exactly the same procedure and elements in the timeline as above. Rendering took 1 minute and 25 sec. And the file size was only 36 MB. Resolution measured 3.75 horizontally and 3.0 vertically – considerably worse than the 1440x1080 file above.
I tried to create a project video file using my 1920x1080 upconverted video clip but VS refused to create a video file with the jpegs, giving an error: “Failed to Open Mpeg Encoder 2000:1:1.” This error message was much more graceful behavior than a crash…
Here is my current dilemma: I would love to playback the slides on my HDTV but (1) DVDs can’t handle the 25Mbps video bitrate, (2) Blu Ray DVD burners and media are non-existent, and (3) I have not yet found any hard disk based HD Video Recorder that has an operable USB2 or firewire connection to the computer.
John
*Frame Based was the property that VS9 assigned to the upconverted video file even though the indicated default setting for the Mpeg2 HDV template was Upper Field First… Go figure.
** Lower Field First matched the video file properties.
I assume that the mpeg2 compression algorithm was efficient enough to eliminate most of the redundant extra pixels in the upconverted larger frames…
MD,
I can confirm that jpegs rendered at 1440x1080 have MUCH better resolution than when rendered at 720x480!
I did the following:
(1) Placed my upconverted video clip in the timeline of a new project and let it set project properties to match: Mpeg2 1440x1080, 16x9, Frame Based*, 25Mbps, Mpeg audio.
(2) Pushed the Quality slider to 100%.
(3) Set Preference Default Frame Type to Frame-Based, Image Resampling to Best
(4) Inserted jpeg images of a resolution chart (2288x1728) and a dozen or so digital photos (2048x1536) into the timeline. Project length = 1minute.
(5) Created Video File using Same As Project. Rendering took 5minutes and 5 seconds. File size = 190MB.
(6) Tried to play back in PowerDVD, WMP 10, Quick Time. None worked. Can playback in VS9 using “clip” playback. Resolution = 5.5-6.0 horizontally and vertically on the res. chart image. All still images are VERY sharp.
For comparison, I created a new project at 720x480, 16x9 LFF**, 8Mbps, Mpeg audio video file with exactly the same procedure and elements in the timeline as above. Rendering took 1 minute and 25 sec. And the file size was only 36 MB. Resolution measured 3.75 horizontally and 3.0 vertically – considerably worse than the 1440x1080 file above.
I tried to create a project video file using my 1920x1080 upconverted video clip but VS refused to create a video file with the jpegs, giving an error: “Failed to Open Mpeg Encoder 2000:1:1.” This error message was much more graceful behavior than a crash…
Here is my current dilemma: I would love to playback the slides on my HDTV but (1) DVDs can’t handle the 25Mbps video bitrate, (2) Blu Ray DVD burners and media are non-existent, and (3) I have not yet found any hard disk based HD Video Recorder that has an operable USB2 or firewire connection to the computer.
John
*Frame Based was the property that VS9 assigned to the upconverted video file even though the indicated default setting for the Mpeg2 HDV template was Upper Field First… Go figure.
** Lower Field First matched the video file properties.
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jchunter
Links to Other High Definition Forums
Here are some links to other forums that focus on high definition camcorders, editors, equipment, etc.:
http://www.sonyhdvinfo.com/forumdisplay ... une=-1&f=1
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/bbs/forumd ... e=-1&f=137
http://www.sonyhdvinfo.com/forumdisplay ... une=-1&f=1
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/bbs/forumd ... e=-1&f=137
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jchunter
Wow, I Edited HDV in VS9
I am amazed! I was able to use Video Studio 9 to edit my 1440x1080 25Mbps, mix of upconverted video and jpeg stills HDVideo file and produce a clean playing HDVideo file.
Procedure
(1) I placed my HDV mpeg2 file in the timeline of a new project and let VS set Project Properties to match.
(2) I applied the Multi-Trim Video control cut the HDV file into three separate pieces. These remained in the timeline.
(3) I selected the original source clip and did a Save Trimmed Video (STV) from the middle, which created a new, short HDV file.
(4) I placed the STV clip between two of the MTV clips in the timeline.
(5) I inserted a Flying Flip transition in the intersections of the first two clips and a crossfade between the last two.
(6) I inserted a music sound track
(7) The Project plays back badly only at each transition. The rest of the track is “not too bad.” CPU: 80-100% Busy, 792 MB memory.
(8) I then Created a new Video File of the project, using Same as Project Properties.
(9) The Project HDVideo file plays back flawlessly in Video Studio, transitions and all!
What Now?
Well, if I had an HDV camcorder, I would want to EXPORT the project file through a firewire connection to the camcorder to store on a tape. Unfortunately, I do not see any evidence of an Export option to an HDV Camcorder. Only the DV Export option is in evidence. It is possible that the DV option could magically detect the presence of an HDV camcorder (if I only had one) and enable any additional encoding to produce the high definition transport stream.
Ulead: Please send me a Sony HDR-HC1 HDV Camcorder so I can continue beta testing the HDV plugin code.
Procedure
(1) I placed my HDV mpeg2 file in the timeline of a new project and let VS set Project Properties to match.
(2) I applied the Multi-Trim Video control cut the HDV file into three separate pieces. These remained in the timeline.
(3) I selected the original source clip and did a Save Trimmed Video (STV) from the middle, which created a new, short HDV file.
(4) I placed the STV clip between two of the MTV clips in the timeline.
(5) I inserted a Flying Flip transition in the intersections of the first two clips and a crossfade between the last two.
(6) I inserted a music sound track
(7) The Project plays back badly only at each transition. The rest of the track is “not too bad.” CPU: 80-100% Busy, 792 MB memory.
(8) I then Created a new Video File of the project, using Same as Project Properties.
(9) The Project HDVideo file plays back flawlessly in Video Studio, transitions and all!
What Now?
Well, if I had an HDV camcorder, I would want to EXPORT the project file through a firewire connection to the camcorder to store on a tape. Unfortunately, I do not see any evidence of an Export option to an HDV Camcorder. Only the DV Export option is in evidence. It is possible that the DV option could magically detect the presence of an HDV camcorder (if I only had one) and enable any additional encoding to produce the high definition transport stream.
Ulead: Please send me a Sony HDR-HC1 HDV Camcorder so I can continue beta testing the HDV plugin code.
HDV distribution is not as much of a problem as most people think. I routinely save fully edited HDV files onto 4.7 GB (red laser) DVDs and play them on a modern computer using a standard MPEG2 player. A disk will hold about 24 minutes of content, which is more than adequate for many home movies, slide shows, etc. Alternately, an HDWMV format file plays nicely in Windows Media Player and allows for full length movies to be saved on a single layer 4.7GB disk
Proxy codecs are nothing new, and VS9 does indeed use one very effectively. I have been using them in Vegas 6 and Final Cut Pro for many months now, and this approach works extremely well. Even the free iMovieHD software uses this approach, and editing HDV video on a $499 MacMini actually goes very quickly (believe it or not). I used that approach for a couple months until Final Cut Pro Studio HD was released.
VS9 works extremely well in this regard. Much better than I expected.
Proxy codecs are nothing new, and VS9 does indeed use one very effectively. I have been using them in Vegas 6 and Final Cut Pro for many months now, and this approach works extremely well. Even the free iMovieHD software uses this approach, and editing HDV video on a $499 MacMini actually goes very quickly (believe it or not). I used that approach for a couple months until Final Cut Pro Studio HD was released.
VS9 works extremely well in this regard. Much better than I expected.
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jchunter
George,
Thank you for that reference.
I downloaded Robotica1080.wmv, 20 MB and VS9 converted it to HDV mpg2 1440x1080 in 83 seconds. The Mpeg2 file was 62.7MB (quite a bit of inflation, here). I placed it in the time line, used the scissors control to slice it into 4 pieces, inserted my earlier upconverted project video file into the timeline, cut it into pieces, shuffled the clips around on the timeline, inserted aother crossfade transition. Video Studio was remarkably stable and resposive throughout all this abuse... Project plaback was smooth until it hit the transition, choked, and recovered. CPU Busy varied between 80% and 100%, memory usage was fairly constant at about 600 MB.
I did Share/Create Video File, Same As Project Settings for this 31 sec. HDV project in about 26 seconds - no transcoding - not far off of real time... Play back of the project video file was very smooth from start to finish.
My conclusion: VS9 is just about ready for prime time editing of high definition videos. All it needs is a better algorithm for playback of complex transitions.
The remaining unknowns are Capture and Export performance. Send me a Sony HC1 so I can check this out.
Thank you for that reference.
I downloaded Robotica1080.wmv, 20 MB and VS9 converted it to HDV mpg2 1440x1080 in 83 seconds. The Mpeg2 file was 62.7MB (quite a bit of inflation, here). I placed it in the time line, used the scissors control to slice it into 4 pieces, inserted my earlier upconverted project video file into the timeline, cut it into pieces, shuffled the clips around on the timeline, inserted aother crossfade transition. Video Studio was remarkably stable and resposive throughout all this abuse... Project plaback was smooth until it hit the transition, choked, and recovered. CPU Busy varied between 80% and 100%, memory usage was fairly constant at about 600 MB.
I did Share/Create Video File, Same As Project Settings for this 31 sec. HDV project in about 26 seconds - no transcoding - not far off of real time... Play back of the project video file was very smooth from start to finish.
My conclusion: VS9 is just about ready for prime time editing of high definition videos. All it needs is a better algorithm for playback of complex transitions.
The remaining unknowns are Capture and Export performance. Send me a Sony HC1 so I can check this out.
Last edited by jchunter on Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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THoff
That was typo, right? The file sizes should be in MB...jchunter wrote:George,
Thank you for that reference.
I downloaded Robotica1080.wmv, 20 GB and VS9 converted it to HDV mpg2 1440x1080 in 83 seconds. The Mpeg2 file was 62.7GB (quite a bit of inflation, here).
If one is going to be playing HD content, I would suggest sticking with WMV/DIVX/MPEG4. These codecs are far better at handling such large data volumes efficiently. Transcoding from WMV (lossy) to MPEG2 (lossy) will not only result is a larger file, but also a further loss of quality.
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jchunter
Torsten,
Quite right! Those units are indeed megabytes.
The only short HD download that I could find was in WMV format.
I converted to Mpeg2 in an effort to emulate the editing sequence one would use if capturing Mpeg2 HDV from an HD camcorder (as well as to see the difference in compression capability). My guess is that HD picture quality will be best preserved by capturing, editing, and playback in Mpeg - i.e., never transcoding to other formats.
I also wanted to put the maximum stress on Video Studio when editing and playing back high definition edits, which the mpeg encoding accomplishes. Video Studio 9 passed with flying colors!
John
Quite right! Those units are indeed megabytes.
The only short HD download that I could find was in WMV format.
I converted to Mpeg2 in an effort to emulate the editing sequence one would use if capturing Mpeg2 HDV from an HD camcorder (as well as to see the difference in compression capability). My guess is that HD picture quality will be best preserved by capturing, editing, and playback in Mpeg - i.e., never transcoding to other formats.
I also wanted to put the maximum stress on Video Studio when editing and playing back high definition edits, which the mpeg encoding accomplishes. Video Studio 9 passed with flying colors!
John