Multi-Camera editing technique

[weaver]

I do not think the the 25fps and the 50 fps cause some problem, as the difference is just the definition of the field. The 25 fps has 2 fields/frame, while the 50fps has no fields. I do not use MCE so I did not tested it, but on the normal timeline I mix almost everytime the two video formats without any trouble.

[Davidk]

And there's more . . .
1. buzz in 2019 multi-cam audio.
I mentioned this in a prior post. And it's only there in the multicam timeline play: selecting individual audio track in the MCE panel and it's OK. Because of the limits (both type and size) of attachments to posts in the forum, I've screen captured (using LSC from 2018) a small part of that to illustrate the issue (5mb wmv file), and sent it separately to Trevor. May become a buggable issue.
2. storage of MCE work-in-progress.
The settings cog wheel in the MCE panel allows the work-in-progress (WIP) state of the edit to be saved, but there's no way to later import/re-open a wip saved file for the purpose of resuming work on it. The only way to do that is to click the OK button at the bottom of the panel, and that changes the format and put's it into the library as a nominally finished vsp item.

The saved files are stored however - NOT in any of the preference or other working file settings, but as xml files in the user section of the C drive - this location not specified anywhere. Took a while to find them, eventually selected the properties item for a library Multicam VSP and followed the file path: found not only the library vsp's but all the other saved wip files. screenshot here:

Why does Corel always have to do the basic things differently for a new function, rather than properly integrating not only results but workflow with the established practice for the main program?

[asik1]

David, because MCE is external module it's projects are XML's, by that it can be used both in VS and in PS

[Davidk]

Hi Asik,
No issues with the format of the MCE files, it's just where Corel puts them. In preferences and in other places in VS, we are asked to specify a working folder, use a specific folder, or else use the default given. The practice is to put any files there. For MCE - no, Corel has to use a folder that's not mentioned anywhere else in the program. Even the 'save as' naming panel isn't standard - just a message box with a name space.

[Davidk]

Several messages from trevor later - doing it that way so the to and fro don't distract from learnings - and a class involving everyone poking at the "how to", I have the following;
Learnings 3. There is no smart proxy thumbnail icon (a la main VS timeline) for HD files in the MCE panel, but there are colour bars across the top of the file(s) indicating status: orange for a smartproxy file required, and green for smart proxy file available; there is also a progress indicator in that the orange bar progressively turns green. If there are several HD files involved, that colour change shows steadily across all of the files.
Comment: I found that progress indicator useful: I've lost count of the time I felt frustrated not know just how far any SP conversion for an HD file in the main timeline had gone. And it would be very user friendly to have those colur progress bars in the main VS workspace as well. And vice versa for the icon in the MCE thumbnail when the SP file is available.

Learnings 4. Trevor had to remind me that the audio sync source was selectable (eg a camera or an audio file), not automatic. The list box is right there beside the scissors icon - my aging eyes had just not 'seen' it earlier.
Comment: the audio buzz I mentioned in prior posts is definitely a clash of audio tracks. With the sync source set to camera 1, and
a) with 3 cameras and an audio file in the 1st audio track, the buzz is distinctive and irritating, and the overall audio was rather lower in volume than expected. Muting the audio file (click the speaker icon at the LH start of track) reduced the buzz noticeably and also increased the audio volume. Deleting the audio file completely removed the buzz and further increased the volume.
b) starting with 3 cameras and 1 audio file, deleting camera files and audio files until there was only the camera 1 video/selected audio source left, no buzz at all.

Audio Sync.
Notwithstanding the sync on audio and selected sync source, all the camera/audio files imported are scanned from start to end, and I found that in the recordings we took, the audio sync was actually made on a loud clatter noise (dropped something??) at the end of the files, rather than the intended clapper at the start. Which put the audio out of sync with the video imagery: not a lot, maybe a word or 2, but noticeably.

Syncing manually is probably feasible if the audio waveform is clear enough in the waveform view, but likely to be fiddly.

Which leads me back to the selected area option in the drop down list for the method of audio sync: there is no mention of it in the user guide. I tried it out: select that option and all the camera/audio track items loaded in MCE are presented with a highlighted area at the start of track. Each select area is individually adjustable. Set the area to include sync sound (clapper board) in each file, and click the circular arrows icon to get it done.

Attached screenshot of the select area method attached, showing the selected area highlighted on each track, the audio waveforms, the marker line vertically at the start of tracks, and immediately to the right of that line is the peak for the clapper board - all nicely lined up.

This method looks to be the most attractive for sync so far.

[Davidk]

Picking up the earlier posted item about storing MCE panel files as xml vs vsp files:
- is there a way to recover or import an MCE xml saved file back into MCE - to resume work on it - directly? Without having to go thru the OK/vsp in the library process?
I've already had one student lose a nights work in MCE because she saved it, but did not OK before closing MCE because it was unfinished, ie she was going to be back and do more on it. The saved file is available as an xml, but that won't open in VS/MCE. Now it looks like that work is effectively lost and she will have to re-do it: not a good experience for any user. And I expect there will be more in this boat.

[lata]

Hi
When I try to close the MCE using any option the panel prompts me to save, obviously choosing NO will lose any recent edits
Choosing OK saves my work without notice.
I am unable to close MCE without saving or receiving a message to save.

[Davidk]

Saving or save and recover the workspace.
You can save (or 'save as') the MCE workfile using the small settings panel (cogwheel @ top LH part of the screen) and you get a panel to name the file. And immediately afterwards if you click the exit X top RH toolbar (a habit pattern most of us have to save then exit), the MCE workspace closes. Immediately, no further action. And the saved file does exist in the multicam folder as an xml file, HOWEVER that file is useless now because MCE will not open again for this file or any other - in fact if you try to open you get errors messages.
The only way to save the MCE workfile and be able to recover it to do more work/edit on it is to exit by clicking the OK button at the bottom of the workspace. That creates both an xml file and a VSP file stored in the multicam folder, and a vsp thumbnail is displayed in the main library. Rt click that thumbnail, select the multicam option in the list and the MCE workspace is restored with the files etc as they were when the workspace was OK'd.

Editing changes the multi-view pane, cannot recover to default
I found a sequence of edit actions that changes the multiview pane in the workspace:
1. import camera video clips to tracks 1 and 2.
2. sync them using the select area option
3. import a 3rd camera clip into track 3
4. sync all of the files using the select area option
and then the main workspace changed to look like this - changed view pane circled in red, obscuring a number of controls like the audio source list, scissors etc.

No amount of restarts, re-sizing would restore this pane to its default size and make the controls available again.

Smart proxy files
The smart proxy file settings in the MCE workspace cogwheel are the same - uses the same data (threshold/proxy file location) - as are entered in the Settings/Preferences/performance tab of the main program. However, different project files in MCE which use the same source files actually create new/duplicate proxy file copies, which are stored in the proxy folder as multiple copies. In the main VS workspace, proxy files once created are re-used whenever the same source file is used: that does not seem to be the case for proxy files created from MCE. See attached screenshot for proxy files created in MCE with the copies for the same source file highlighted.

An interesting effect is that the created (from the same original) proxy file sizes are not the same.

Both last 2 results have been bug reported.

[lata]

Hi
First I have no idea why the program creates xml files as they do no seem to work with Video Studio nor was I able to use in Pinnacle, mentioned by Asik?
If they are used by MCE then they should be hidden from the user as they are no use as they are.
There is a similar file being created with 2019 Multi Cam Capture where VSP’s and xml files are created, again cannot find any use for the xml other than to confuse. Personally I simply ignore them.

I agree that closing the MCE without doing any edits does not create a VSP, not noticed that before, but then I don’t think I ever open MCE without doing some edits.
However if from the Source Manager we choose a Project Name then ok to enter MCE, hit the “X” we are prompted to save.
So yes there are some anomalies if we try to close the MCE without doing any editing.

MCE panel layout
When using two video clips the left panel reduces in size obscuring the icons below the preview, I was able to resize these panels by dragging the edges, had to drag vertically, then horizontal worked. VS X10
Opening MCE with a new set of video did not show this problem, even after re-booting the program.
I was able to replicate this by minimising the MCE rather than using in full screen mode which is normally used.
Maybe using on a tablet with a smaller screen resolution is affected more so.
Results were unpredictable although in full screen mode, no issues.
Using 2019 I had no problems, but sure with a little perseverance …………………………

Smart Proxy
I suspect the duplicate proxy files are created from multiple copies of the P1000316 video file.
Either duplicate copies on your hard drive or copies on USB memory that may have been used in MCE.
Unfortunately the Smart Proxy file manager does not show details of the original files location.

[Davidk]

Hi Trevor,
Re the re-size of the view panel.
Locating the double ended arrow on the bottom or RH side view panel edge - which I called the sizing handles in prior posts - is simple enough. In windows these are typically used to drag the size of an element of a window to be smaller or larger. And with that arrow (vertical or horizontal made no difference) in view, left-click the mouse, hold and drag - had no effect. Even with no clips imported, no effect. I re-tried this after your comment about vertical first and then horizontal - no change. The reduced view pane and obscured controls seem to be "stuck".

Update on view panel size
In the MCE settings cogwheel, there's an item in the drop down list called "reset layout". Select that, and the view pane returns to the default and the obscured controls are again available. Works for an empty MCE, and also an OK'd MCE file in the gallery restored to the MCE workspace for more edits.
Hallelujah!!

The screen resolution
The PC display on which the view pane error occurred is 1440x900 @59hz. This is the display on which all my experiments with MCE files have occurred: not been a problem with any version of VS before.

Smart proxy.
The recorded files are all on an SD card, that I swap between the main editing desktop, and the class laptop. There's only 1 copy of that P1000316.mp4 file on the card, re-used in several MCE experimental edits. The card has the same on-card folder structure, but in different Pc's it would give the source file(s) a different path (laptop has a lower logical drive letter) to the folder where it is, so it may seem to be a different file. However, proxy file creation previously has only focussed on the actual filename and not where it is used. Moreover, the laptop and desktop have different on-HDD proxy file folders, and for all the MCE edits over the last week, the card has been in the desktop: so same source folder and file, and same proxy folder location for multiple MCE edits using the same file: there should only be one proxy file for the video clip. That desktop proxy file location is the one I screenshotted and posted here. Still, the duplicated files keep coming: and you can see it happening now when the MCE panel is opened with the previous camera work, because of the colour bar in the camera file thumbnail opening with orange and progressively changing to green.

[lata]

Hi David

Good point re “Layout reset” must pay more attention.
As I say I have never had a problem with layout till I tried to replicate your issues.

Sharing Video Studio projects.
Once you have provided all students with the video recordings, it only has to be done once.
Each student will then edit those files either in VS main timeline or MCE.
They will create their own Smart Proxy files, if they are required.
Smart Proxy files are associated with the video files not the project.

If you wish to show a student your project simple provide the VSP.

If the VSP is an MCE VSP then first open using Video Studio and re-link to the local files.
Do not perform any edits, Save the project and Close.
Now import the MCE VSP to the library, will not import if not re-linked.

Double clicking that file will open the MCE, another re-link is required, again re-link to local files.
All files should work there will be no need to recreate Smart Proxy files as they already exist on the local machine.

If you do provide your video files then they are looking for Smart Proxies on your machine and cannot find on students pc so proxies have to be created, now viewing the file manager will look like duplicates.

[Davidk]

With proxy files either missing from the proxy folder, or having duplicates with various sizes, I carried out specific tests using HD files, smart proxy and MCE to get a better understanding of what was going on with MCE and smart proxy. To do that I first cleaned out all the vsp's, xml's and upx files from any folders, and deleted the MCE thumbnails from the library; then did a specific proxy file creation test and use in MCE. And as a result reached some definitive conclusion about process results. So, this post is about the use of smart proxy files in general and in particular with MCE.

1. Generally, if a smart proxy file is going to be required in MCE (as, eg an HD or larger definition file or files will be in use), first import the HD files to the main timeline and create the proxy file(s) from those files in the main VS timeline: either let the performance thresholds set in the preferences, or manually start them going by rt-click on the file and choose create proxy file. Wait for the SP icon to show in the/any/all clip thumbnail before doing anything else. For a large source file, that may take quite some time.

And when it's finished and you have the smart proxy icon in the clip thumbnail, you will probably find that the SD proxy file is actually larger than the original HD file it is an avatar for. Why that should be the case is not understood, but I've alerted Trevor and supplied him with screenshot evidence.

2.The MCE technique using smart proxy files - once they are completely created and exist in the preferences set proxy folder - is quick and clearly indicated; the original file selected for a camera in the MCE source panel will show in the workspace with a green bar on the top of the clip thumbnail. If there is any hint of an orange bar or part of a bar on a clip - the proxy creation process has failed in some way and MCE is trying to re-create the proxy file, with duplicate results.

[Davidk]

Copying proxy files between PC's
You would think that proxy files would be copyable between PC's, in the same way that video and other clips are. They are, after all, just video files.

Alas, no. Something not obvious in the upx proxy file must identify the PC or path in the machine that created it. I copied the proxy files that I successfully tested (prior post) with on my desktop, and stored them in the proxy file folder on my laptop. The laptop proxy file manager identified that they were there, in-folder. But inserting the original clip files into camera 1 thru 3 of MCE source manager on the laptop and opening the MCE workspace immediately showed 1) each clip on as not having a proxy (orange bar on top of clip thumbnail) and 2) MCE starting to create one. So, do it the long way - on the laptop, insert the original clip files into VS and wait for proxy file to be created . . . . .

[lata]

Smart Proxy as far as I can tell work the same for the main program as they do for the MCE panel, one difference is the indication when proxy files are being / have been created, I refer to the green bar indicator.

If there is no bar -- proxy is not enabled
If the bar is green -- proxy files are being used
If a mixture of green / orange indicates proxies are being created, closing MCE will not terminate this creation.

Closing Video Studio program will affect the creation of Proxy files, we should allow the completion of proxies before closing Video Studio.
I ran a quick test where MCE was creating a proxy file, I closed MCE and closed VS.
When I opened VS and the MCE project the proxy file creation continued to work from where it left off to complete the proxy files.

We cannot export our proxy files to another pc, yes that would be an advantage as would the ability to relink.

However the project you are running with your class, all students have the same identical video files, each Student will create their own proxy files to work with their own projects.
If you provide them with a VSP using the same files, when they open the project they will have to re-link that’s normal.
All files will be available and proxy files will be intact used from the local pc with no need to recreate those files
Yes if you provide new video files, similar but a different length then proxy files will have to be created for those new files.

The only reason I can see to create duplicate proxy files (although with a slightly different name having a number added) is when we move the same video files again and again.
As all your students have the same identical files you do not need to provide those again, simply provide the VSP project file, no additional proxy files will be created
As mentioned earlier if it’s a MCE VSP then you need to re-link twice.

I think I am just repeating myself here.
I assume you are still referring to your students and the common project you are all working on-- As my last reply Sharing Video Studio Projects

[Davidk]

Hi Trevor
Interesting commentary on creation of proxy files. It occurred to me that one reason for the varied length of the upx file that showed in the various managers (posted about previously in this topic) was turning off/closing either the MCE panel and/or VS. I noted in the past that the upx file does not appear in the file manager until the creation process is 'nominally' finished, hence what could cause it to be finished? Closure would be one. Have not noticed continuance after re-opening: have you tested that?

As to the class use of the files - yes, they have all the same files, and will have to put them together with MCE and then VS on their own PC's and edit the resulting vsp to get the desired result. The links and vsp's at that point will be unique to student. And I've had feedback from 2 that are doing that. Whilst they have been getting on with the project at hand, I seem to be the one finding issues and spending time either solving them or researching possible causes.

As for exporting upx files - even manually - that would be a desirable thing. The video file they are created from can be copied/pasted manually so why not the derived upx file? It's a lot faster to copy an existing file than to re-create it on a different PC.

The colour bars for proxy files in MCE - are a great innovation. In that respect MCE is different from the main VS usage of proxy files. Those bars should be included with the main program's use of proxy files.