MF4 Will Not Allow Copying From DVD-VR To DVD-R???

nyco_ork · Post by **nyco_ork** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 4:44 am

I tried both Disc-to-Disc copy (with two optical drives, no bouncing off the HDD), and Burn DVD folder to Disc, in which I first tried saving the DVD to the HDD "for future burning," as the dialogue puts it.

Also, I must correct my previous statement that other copy utilities don't have the problem. I just tried HotBurn Pro, which I rarely use. I tried creating a disc image on the hard drive before doing a copy to the optical drive, and got a similar message "Disc is a UDF formatted disc, and the copy will not be playable," or something along those lines.

Go figure. Lucky for me that sonic Record Now isn't so fussy, or I wouldn't be able to make copies. If you have any ideas on how to tweak the settings in Movie Factory so this doesn't happen, it would be great.

Thanks

etech6355 · Post by **etech6355** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 6:12 am

If the DVD was written in UDF format you have to buffer it to the harddisk first, whatever.

Lets go back one step. When I said COPY the dvd to the harddisk I meant COPY the WHOLE DISK using Windows. Just DRAG the VIDEO_TS folder to the harddisk using Windows Explorer and have all those files transferred to your harddisk.
DO NOT IMPORT THE DVD USING MF4 IMPORTING FEATURES TO COPY THE CONTENTS OF THE DVD TO YOUR HARDDISK.
USE WINDOWS EXPLORER, DRAG & DROP THE VIDEO_TS FOLDER TO YOUR HARDDISK.
Once you have copied the VIDEO_TS folder to your harddisk it is NO LONGER IN UDF FORMAT.
Then use MF4 to burn the dvd selecting Burn DVD Folder.
You also need to be aware if you have Sonic installed the Sonic installation may have installed a packet writing program that can interfere with other programs trying to use the dvd burner. Sounds to me like Sonic's packet writer is installed and active on the burners, also a reason why Sonic can make copies of the dvd's and other programs may have problems.

nyco_ork · Post by **nyco_ork** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 5:53 pm

Thanks for the clarification. I'll try the explorer copy you outline. I also have the option of doing a disc copy on the standalone recorder itself by bouncing off its hard drive; however, it won't burn at 8x on the new 16x media, and steps down to 4x, so I've been looking for a way to use the 16x media on the computer. I have an outboard Iomega drive that burns 16x media.

Just so I know, why is that there's no problem copying DVD's I've authored in MF4? Does it use a different system?

RB

sjj1805 · Post by **sjj1805** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 6:04 pm

nyco_ork wrote:Thanks for the clarification. I'll try the explorer copy you outline. I also have the option of doing a disc copy on the standalone recorder itself by bouncing off its hard drive; however, it won't burn at 8x on the new 16x media, and steps down to 4x, so I've been looking for a way to use the 16x media on the computer. I have an outboard Iomega drive that burns 16x media.

Just so I know, why is that there's no problem copying DVD's I've authored in MF4? Does it use a different system?

RB

Please view:
DVD burning/playback issues

nyco_ork · Post by **nyco_ork** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 6:33 pm

Steve, I've seen your posts about burn speed, and have followed your advice regarding my computer burners. I always burn my MF4-authored DVDs at 4x. However, the standalone has no option for changing speeds. I don't always use MF4 to create a DVD. If it's something that can get along with plain-vanilla menus and no chapter menus, I just burn to DVD from the standalone HDD. I've never had a problem with its discs (burned at 8x) playing on other people's players.

The computer, MF4-created discs have been a different story, probably because I make lots of menus, and the processing is difficult, so I use 4x.

For straight disc copies, however, I've found that the standalone copies made at 8x, and the striaght copies I've made at 16x onto the outboard drive, work fine.

This issue regarding the burn speed on the standalone has become critical. They're not upgrading the firmware; in fact, all the hard drive DVD burners are being taken off the market. As of March 1, no recorder can be sold in the US that doesn't have a digital tuner. The market apparently isn't strong enough for the manufacturers to make the conversion. Pioneer told me they don't sell enough as it is to make a profit.

It is becoming more and more difficult to find 8x media. I don't want to use 16x media on an 8x burner that hasn't had a firmware upgrade. There are warnings all over the place against it. I contacted Verbatilm, whose discs I use, and they told me that the 16x media require higher laser power, which is why the Pioneer steps down to 4x; it can't provide enough power to burn a 16x blank at 8x. This makes me think that even the 4x copies made on a non-16x burner will not be reliable.

I've spent the last several weeks going crazy with this issue. That's why I took the Iomega outboard drive out of the closet; it is at least rated for 16x. The other prong of my strategy has been to order 2500 8x blanks on the Internet, while they're still available. They're already off the shelves of all the stores here in New York.

The industry is making our life very difficult here. There was no such problem with CDs. If I want to burn a 48x blank at 24x or 12x, there's no problem with the burner being able to handle it. DVDs are an entirely different animal.

I know this is not entirely related to Movie Factory, but MF authoring is certainly part of this whole mix. I did one 16x disc at 4x in the computer, using MF4, and it seemed to play all right, but I just don't trust the burner to make a good copy on 16x media. None of the manufacturers of my burners are offering firmware upgrades.

Sorry for the length of this post, but it's a complicated issue, and a critical one, as you know.

RB

etech6355 · Post by **etech6355** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 7:33 pm

I have a feeling that your version of "Sonic Burn_Now" has drivers loaded to enable packet writing on your writer. This may be causing some problems with the ulead burning module. Your correct, these problems are hard to troubleshoot and very time consuming.

I've experienced a few dvd recorders with internal harddisks to have various custom settings in their setup menu. Some of these settings can cause problems with computer programs. They have a fast write feature to quickly create a dvd versus the recorders standard method which takes alot longer to transfer from the harddisk to it's DVD writer.
Maybe the Pioneer unit is writing the dvd as an editable dvd. Who knows.

Still and all you should be able to use windows explorer and copy the video_ts folder to your harddisk and burn a DVD-Video disk using that folders and it's files.

nyco_ork · Post by **nyco_ork** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 8:18 pm

Etech,

Thanks for you time and effort. My version of Sonic Record Now came with the computer; it's a light OEM version. There are no upgrades of it available, and I don't want to have any aggressive Sonic retail products on the computer. That's why I came to Ulead in the first place. But the little stub of Record Now does a nice job of basic copying (most of the time).

I copied the files to an HDD folder, and have been experimenting with burning DVDs from the folder in MF4. But it's a no go. The discs finalize properly, and there are no error messages, but the final discs are unplayable on all three of my standalone players. They will play on the computer in the WinDVD player, so I know the information is there. But the standalone players won't bring up the menu; and if I hit "play" directly, they make a stab at playing the disc, but stop immediately.

I burned a 16x disc at 16x on the Iomega outboard burner; burned an 8x disc at 8x on the internal burner; and burned a 16x disc at 4x on the internal burner. All three were unplayable. Somethng is simply not working. Must be some conflict in my system, as you suggest, but I need the other programs for various purposes, so I can't remove them. I guess I'll have to use my other workarounds.

The standalone recorder does have a fast-write feature, which I use when I make these transfers. It burns a full disc at 8x in 8 minutes. But the only other option is to burn in real time, which I'm not willing to do when I'm cranking out projects. So I guess I'll have to live with the consequences.

Again, thanks for the help.

RB

htchien · Post by **htchien** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 6:38 pm

Maybe the UDF copy function on R media is been blocked due to the Optima-Roxio patent suit in December, 2003:

TechNewsWorld - Roxio, CD-R Industry Under Legal Fire from Optima:
http://www.technewsworld.com/story/32410.html

CNet News - CD-burning software prompts patent suit:
http://news.com.com/2100-1012_3-5124558.html

The suit result in October, 2005:

Federal Court Rules that Sonic Solutions Does Not Infringe Optima's Patent:
http://www.sonic.com/about/press/news/2 ... ptima.aspx

And some comments on the suit result:

http://www.fightthepatent.com/v2/PatentWars.html

Maybe you can report to Ulead Tech Support to ask if it's OK for them to unblock the feature.

Ulead Tech Support:
http://www.ulead.com/tech/techsupport.htm

Hope this helps.

H.T.

nyco_ork · Post by **nyco_ork** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 8:24 pm

HT,

That's a great list of links. Thanks.

I've sent the following message to Ulead support:

[Question: Other hardware?]
Yes; Pioneer PRV 9200 hard drive DVD recorder/burner.

[Question: detailed info]
My laptop capture card can't capture video well, and it's not upgradable, so I switched to capturing on the Pioneer, then importing the project into Ulead for authoring, which works just fine. Sometimes, however, I just want to copy the DVD made on the Pioneer. The Ulead copy feature won't do the copy. It gives me this message: "Copying UDF-formatted read-only disc is not allowed because this may infringe patent rights." I've been on the forum, and HT Chien suggests that this may have to do with a patent suit between Optima and Roxio. Optima lost that suit. Is there any way to unblock this prohibition, so I can do these copies? They are discs I have made myself. There is no copyright issue.
R Beeson

nyco_ork · Post by **nyco_ork** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:52 pm

htchien wrote:Maybe the UDF copy function on R media is been blocked due to the Optima-Roxio patent suit in December, 2003:

Ulead Tech Support:
http://www.ulead.com/tech/techsupport.htm

Hope this helps.

H.T.

HT, I've heard back from Ulead Tech Support. Here is their message:

Unfortunately there is no way because the patent is embedded on the UDF file system that is in your disc. Every disc that you create with your Pioneer will have this protection unless there is an option to turn this off on the recorder.

I guess the cause is hopeless. Apparently the only reason I can copy disc-to-disc with Record Now is that I have an old version, without the blocking enabled. The software came with the computer, which is a 2002 design. This won't be the first time that I've had to use an old piece of software to get something done. Newer is often more convoluted, or even unusable, because of issues like this.

Anyway, thanks for all your help.

RB

etech6355 · Post by **etech6355** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 2:59 am

The standalone recorder does have a fast-write feature, which I use when I make these transfers. It burns a full disc at 8x in 8 minutes. But the only other option is to burn in real time, which I'm not willing to do when I'm cranking out projects. So I guess I'll have to live with the consequences.

When you get time I would burn a dvd in real time on the pioneer dvd recorder and see how MF handles copying the dvd. Reason being the fast-write feature in these harddisk recorders don't convert the video for complete dvd player compatibility. If you read the pioneer's manual they will explain the difference and compatibility issues.

I would burn a dvd using regular method to compare compatibility versus burning the fast-write method.

nyco_ork · Post by **nyco_ork** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 7:29 pm

When you get time I would burn a dvd in real time on the pioneer dvd recorder and see how MF handles copying the dvd.

When I have a chance, I'll give it a try. I haven't had any compatability issues with discs made on the Pioneer. They all play perfectly on all of my playback machines, which includes a Generation 1 (1996) machine.

One reason I don't want to do real-time copies on the Pioneer is that it ignores any chapter marks I've set. It only keeps the chapter marks with high-speed copy. In real-time, it sets chapter marks arbitrarily every 10 or 15 minutes, according to what settings I've selected. I'm more careful about where my chapters are placed.

Also, one of the things that makes this so irritating is that the restriction doesn't keep the user from making copies. It just means you're forced to make them on the Pioneer, instead of on a computer. If 8x media weren't in such short supply I'd simply make the copies on the Pioneer. But I don't want to burn out the laser making copies to 16x media, which it isn't rated to handle.

Fortunately, I have the old version of Record Now, which ignores the block. It is happily copying a disc right now to an outboard 16x USB burner.

GeorgeW · Post by **GeorgeW** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 12:13 am

nyco_ork wrote:Etech,

Thanks for you time and effort. My version of Sonic Record Now came with the computer; it's a light OEM version. There are no upgrades of it available, and I don't want to have any aggressive Sonic retail products on the computer. That's why I came to Ulead in the first place. But the little stub of Record Now does a nice job of basic copying (most of the time).

I copied the files to an HDD folder, and have been experimenting with burning DVDs from the folder in MF4. But it's a no go. The discs finalize properly, and there are no error messages, but the final discs are unplayable on all three of my standalone players. They will play on the computer in the WinDVD player, so I know the information is there. But the standalone players won't bring up the menu; and if I hit "play" directly, they make a stab at playing the disc, but stop immediately.

I burned a 16x disc at 16x on the Iomega outboard burner; burned an 8x disc at 8x on the internal burner; and burned a 16x disc at 4x on the internal burner. All three were unplayable. Somethng is simply not working. Must be some conflict in my system, as you suggest, but I need the other programs for various purposes, so I can't remove them. I guess I'll have to use my other workarounds.

The standalone recorder does have a fast-write feature, which I use when I make these transfers. It burns a full disc at 8x in 8 minutes. But the only other option is to burn in real time, which I'm not willing to do when I'm cranking out projects. So I guess I'll have to live with the consequences.

Again, thanks for the help.

RB

What files are in the folders? Also, what are the folder names on the disc you have?

When you burned them to DVD from the hard drive, did you have a choice between "Data" disc vs. something called "DVD-VIDEO"? The files in a VIDEO_TS folder need to be written in the proper order/sequence to disc to be playable by set-top dvd players.

Regards,
George

nyco_ork · Post by **nyco_ork** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 3:30 am

GeorgeW wrote:What files are in the folders? Also, what are the folder names on the disc you have?

When you burned them to DVD from the hard drive, did you have a choice between "Data" disc vs. something called "DVD-VIDEO"? The files in a VIDEO_TS folder need to be written in the proper order/sequence to disc to be playable by set-top dvd players.

Regards,
George

I listed the files in a previoius message on this thread, but here they are again:

VIDEO_TS (root directory)
Files:
VIDEO_TS.BUP 12,288 4/3/2007 8:47 AM G:\VIDEO_TS BUP File 4/3/2007 8:47 AM 4/3/2007 8:47 AM
VIDEO_TS.IFO 12,288 4/3/2007 8:47 AM G:\VIDEO_TS IFO File 4/3/2007 8:47 AM 4/3/2007 8:47 AM
VIDEO_TS.VOB 79,872 4/3/2007 8:47 AM G:\VIDEO_TS VOB File 4/3/2007 8:47 AM 4/3/2007 8:47 AM
VTS_01_0.BUP 65,536 4/3/2007 8:43 AM G:\VIDEO_TS BUP File 4/3/2007 8:43 AM 4/3/2007 8:43 AM
VTS_01_0.IFO 65,536 4/3/2007 8:43 AM G:\VIDEO_TS IFO File 4/3/2007 8:43 AM 4/3/2007 8:43 AM
VTS_01_1.VOB 1,065,353,216 4/3/2007 8:36 AM G:\VIDEO_TS VOB File 4/3/2007 8:36 AM 4/3/2007 8:36 AM
VTS_01_2.VOB 1,065,353,216 4/3/2007 8:36 AM G:\VIDEO_TS VOB File 4/3/2007 8:36 AM 4/3/2007 8:36 AM
VTS_01_3.VOB 1,065,353,216 4/3/2007 8:36 AM G:\VIDEO_TS VOB File 4/3/2007 8:36 AM 4/3/2007 8:36 AM
VTS_01_4.VOB 1,023,854,592 4/3/2007 8:36 AM G:\VIDEO_TS VOB File 4/3/2007 8:36 AM 4/3/2007 8:36 AM

I know they were the right files, and I'm pretty sure they were in the right order. The function I selected was to copy a DVD-Video disc, not a data disc. I have since erased the files, so I can't check them. When I have a chance, I'll give it another try to see if some step went awry.

RB

nyco_ork · Post by **nyco_ork** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 12:24 am

George, Etech, H.T.,

I've done further experimenting with burning a disc from a Video_TS folder on the HDD, using the Ulead copy function, with the following results:

The procedure works fine as long as I'm copying a DVD authored in Movie Factory and burned on the computer.

The disc is unplayable on a standalone player if the original disc was created on the Pioneer. In other words, even though there is no "UDF-formated" error message, the patent infringement block is still embedded in the files, and prevents the disc from playing in set-top players, even though it will play on a computer.

This is a really useless and stupid block, but there's nothing I can do about it. All the manufacturers are doing is forcing users to make copies on the original machines. It doesn't prevent copying per se. I guess they think it will prevent the spread of unlimited copying. No matter that the original material is created by the user. Tough luck. It's not a program copyiright issue; it's a software patent issue. This is one I've never seen written up anywhere.

The whole reason I'm struggling with this is that I want to make the copies on the computer so I can use the 16x drive and 16x media. Since I can't upgrade the Pioneer firmware for 16x media, I'd have to use my precious supply of 8x media to burn copies.

I'm just lucky that the old version of Record Now doesn't recognize the block. Here's a case of why it's wise to keep some old software around. Sometimes the new features of "upgrades" include more aggressive digital rights managemnet.

Thanks for all your help.