flicker in late-2018 rendered projects

[lata]

Hi weaver
Thanks for the sample..
In addition to adding the video did you alter the zoom options on the images as that on its own will fix the problem, but would have to be done to all images through the entire project.

[weaver]

No, I did not. The two critical slides ( house) have the same attributes as on the original and also the map has the same zoom. I tried to keep everything in original conditions.
As the transfer of attributes was not easy I did not apply to the cooktown slide the mercali FX. But there was no flicker on the original.

Eugen

[Davidk]

This replies to several of you.
Weaver - downloaded the part from your link and viewed.
Trevor - It's never happened to me before either. In the disk composition, there are 7 clips; 2 done with X10 (no blink in rendered file), 1 done with early version 2018 (no blinks), and 3 done/rendered with late version 2018 - rendered a week ago - and they all have blinks. Cooktown is the shortest of these, so I picked to experiment with. And one of those 3 is the master holiday clip that links all the others together, and it's long - 20 minutes, full of blinks. Finding whatever is causing the blinks might be hard, but possibly alleviating it could be easier.
Explanation:
You all focussed my attention on the picture shifts, and I mentioned earlier here that the blink didn't seem to occur on all of them. So I looked at those more closely, and the ones that rendered properly were images in the overlay track of the vsp. so I re-worked the project file to
- incorporate suggestions about opening with a video clip, and using mercalli
- put the still images and transitions into the overlay track.
Fiddly stuff. But it seems to have removed the blink, but introduced another problem that's equally unexplained.

I packaged this version of the project, and the revised vsp is attached. The content is the same as the previous package - nothing new, just things re-arranged - so inserting this revised vsp into the previous package folder and running it/rendering in VS2018 should work without any re-links. Please confirm your render removes the blinks.

Cooktown5_vs2018.VSP.txt

(408.5 KiB) Downloaded 111 times

The new problem is that the rendered cooktown5 now has 3 video clips in it that switch from 16:9 to 16:7? widescreen but with black bands top and bottom. Not all together. Which did not happen in the prior rendered but blinky version. Can someone confirm that this happens to them as well? And if you know, advise why it happens?

[lata]

Hi
Off Topic
Time check using Same as Project took 2 minutes to render.

With this new arrangement all Flicks have disappeared
I did not see any problem with black bands top and bottom although I did not run Mercalli stabilisation. That may affect the frame?

The point is can we easily fix the problem project without having to re-arrange the clips.
I did render the original to MP4 which seemed to work, but would have to render again to Mpeg2 for the DVD.

[weaver]

Hi David.
I used on my short test the same arrangement as in the original, ie the slides were on the main track, few inserts (map and the ligthtower) were on overlay.
It was interesting yesterday I just wanted to continue your film repeating the first 20 seconds at the end of your film. I have got the same flickers again. Later on I created a completely new project and just took over your original slides and FX on them and this was OK. (This is what you downloaded). The flicker is definitively a timing problem of the content, and can happen only on the maintrack because this contains the time basis for the whole video ( the overlay tracks are locked to the main track from sync point of view). It was my concern yesterday, if there is no video on that track how can Corel decide and select the proper time basis? The 720x576 25p what you can set in the properties is not enough. I can imagine, that there was a correct sync pattern for every format, maybe it is omitted now, I do not know, I never experienced such troubles yet.
You also confirm my idea with the words, that the images on the overlay tracks have no problem. I do not know what you had in that case on the main track, but usually you must have something on the main track for the normal operation.
It was also in earlier days of video processing, very often we had to record the black screen on the whole band, and the real video was finally inserted into the black stream. It was important as the sync basis was correct recorded with the black screen and the inserts very synchronized to the original sync pattern.
In digital video it is slightly different, but basically the NLE shall create a sync pattern for every pixel for the video content. This pattern seems to be corrupt in your case. We do not know exactly what is the reason, maybe VS2018 does not have anymore the sync pattern for SD resolution, or the detection does not work properly.
We will see.

[lata]

I have just rendered a section at the end of the project from 00:04:22:03 to the end
Interesting that the first images do not contain Pan and Zoom
The images are approx. 3 x 2 yet fit to screen as the Resampling Option is set to Keep Aspect No letterbox
One image is portrait 2 X 3 yet fits to screen being distorted to widescreen
The combination of 3 x 2 images using Keep Aspect No letterbox appears to be upsetting things.
And still wondering if anamorphic video properties are playing a part here?
2018 will allow to remove the No Letterbox then fill the screen using fit to width to remove the border, and renders without the flicker

[weaver]

It can be some very stupid SW error. His pictures have a strange size something 3000x2000 pixels, it can happen ( I had this issue in my praxis) that they cannot divede this amount of pixels to the required size ( would be interesting to check it into HD format).

[Davidk]

Response to the feedback
1. black bars top and bottom of rendered clips; I reviewed the rendered cook5 video using media player, and there are 2 (must have originally counted wrong) here:
- the cemetery clip: time 3.15, clip 1mov044.mod
- museum verandah clip: time 4.52, 1mov04E.mod
2. picture resolution. The camera was set for max resolution in the images it took, which is 6mp, works out to that 3008x2000 number in the properties. It was a high-end general SLR camera when I bought it back in 2007. But stills from this camera have been used in every version of VS I have ever had (UL11 onwards: X5,X6,X7,X8,X9,X10 and early 2018) without any issues at all. I really do not think that the size of the jpg images is a problem; nevertheless, if it is it's happened in VS since 2018 sp2 came out.
3. mercalli. Was on one clip - the restaurant at 1.14, 1mov31.

Trevor,
You said:
"The images are approx. 3 x 2 yet fit to screen as the Resampling Option is set to Keep Aspect No letterbox"
But the project properties are set to 'keep aspect ratio'. Could you clarify this comment?
Mentioned distorted images. Some, true. Mainly, re-sized using handles at corners and positioned so they filled the preview window (but always to obscure the colour used to maintain the timeline). I don't understand the impact here. I've done that before with out any blinks in the render.
And lastly
"2018 will allow to remove the No Letterbox then fill the screen using fit to width to remove the border, and renders without the flicker"
So, clarify that last comment?

[Davidk]

Update
Preference\edit\Re-sampling set to "fit to project size"
Re-rendered the original vsp with this preference change, but the blinks were still evident in the result.

Commentary about black bars in clips.
A confusing factor seemed to be that the bars began showing at various times in the clips mentioned - sometimes immediately, and other times after a few seconds (ie. play started normally but then in-clip switched to widescreen barred display) - but once the bars started, they stayed there until the end of the particular clip in the project.
Trevor commented that he had no bars. And this seems to be an effect introduced by media player - the version that came with win7 - which for consistency I had been using to review render results. I replayed the cook5 rendered versions (several of them on my machine) using VLC, and there were no black bars showing when playing the resulting mpg file.

Things like player interference such as this don't help.

So, the vsp (cook5) with photos and transitions in the OL track, and re-sampling set to 'fit to project size' (which was new to 2018 and I had not noticed it until Trevor mentioned it) now seems to be the best workaround for the blinks. There's still no indication of just what was the cause of the blinks in late-version VS2018 the first place. And for good measure, the renders of the original vsp in 2019 showed the same blinky effect, so the cause needs to be found and fixed.

[gewb]

Dave -

I downloaded your zip file and ran it in VS2018. Only had to rerun Mercalli. Rendered and played back with NO issues.

Go figure...

GEWB

[lata]

Hi David
I realise that you have used the edit options before and they worked ok, and still work using X9, so yes there is some issues with using 2018.
Your project is set to DVD Mpeg2 16:9 to match your anamorphic video files.
Anamorphic video 720 x 576 stretches to fit the 4:3 or 16:9 screen.
The images are 3 x 2 and when inserted to the top timelines automatically fit to screen keeping their aspect ratio, this created a border left and right.
To remove that border you have applied “resampling option as no-letterbox”, this has the effect of increasing the size of the image to fill the screen, we do loose details top and bottom, effectively “Fit to Width and keep aspect ratio”
Then you applied Video Pan & Zoom which again increased the image size.
Some images are portrait and the resize due to Letterbox is quite a change.
So the image has undergone 3 size changes
1 / adding to the timeline, auto fits to screen, exceptions are the overlay tracks.
2 / “apply No Letterbox” resized the image
3 / Video Pan and Zoom resized the image
To overcome the problem using 2018
1 / remove both “No Letterbox and Pan and Zoom”
2 / Apply Motion Studio to resize / pan the image in one go.

As for
“the project properties are set to 'keep aspect ratio'. Could you clarify this comment?”
Err no, except the Project Properties are using keep aspect ratio, then we change that on the clips by resizing by whatever method we like.

I have not looked at the video black border
Are you referring to the original project or the Cooktown 5 project
I have just rendered a section over the Cemetery clip including several images either side (02:59:015) to (03:40:013) and still see the Flicker effects but no black border.
Now I see a lot of the Title / Text are out of position??? And I am sure they were ok yesterday--confused

Rendering the project to Mpeg4 does not show the problem then rendering to DVD Mpeg2 should be ok, not gone that far.

[Davidk]

I really don't understand your use of 'anamorphic'. As best I can find out (dictionaries, wikipedia et al), it means a file or image that looks Ok when distorted. But whatever it is or was, what you see in the cooktown package vsp and and the sample x10 clip is the same basic way I've done holiday clips for years. Variations in use of objects, colous/patterns, filters, and dressing eg frames and text styles. It's always worked, thru multiple versions of VS. Suddenly, for 2018 late SP, it doesn't. A cause for concern in any one's language. Of more concern, 2019 is the same : when I was hitting a blinky wall with 2018, I tried rendering that cooktown package vsp in 2019 and got a blinky mpg file from that version too.

Sidebar: you should get Nick on this case, for 2019 esp. Past the fact that those of you who helped out here could replicate the issue, we are now discussing workarounds - and there seem to be several - for that issue. But what caused this in the first place? What fix can Corel offer?

But what I think you are saying (a workaround for the blinks) is don't use the Video P&Z filter, use advanced motion instead? I have several more place projects on that holiday, that 2018 rendered with blinks, to re-edit with the workaround, including the master clip - places that are memorable in their own way but not enough to spend several hours doing a special on it. That vsp is 20 minutes long, and I spent about 4 months just putting it together.

[lata]

workround

render to MP4 - try a few tests with various settings to check quality (interlacing or Progressive)
then render MP4 to DVD Mpeg2
I have only done this on a short section but seems to work ok.

anamorphic --your Mpeg2 is 720 x 576 using a calculator that clearly is not 4:3 nor 16:9 yet your video fits a 16:9 widescreen
Think of the pixels as being rectangular and not square.

If you take a screen shot of the video in project mode then in clip mode to compare the results

all i am saying is that the clips are undergoing a few size changes, and those may be conflicting

you are right that it should work as it works with earlier versions

Now i am having issues with the Text layout and i cannot understand that as it affects all versions of VS.

[Davidk]

Trevor,
That seems to work. And so far I have done 2 of the blinky projects this way, the big one still to do.
Specifically,
1. open 2018 and select the offending vsp (which when rendered 'same as project settings' gives blinks in the mpg output file) and share, un-tick the 'same as ..' box, select mpeg4 as the format, choose locations and filename, OK.
2. when the mpeg4 render is complete, open the updated VS2018 as a new project, and import that mp4 file into the VS timeline. Select share, untick the 'same as' box, select mpeg2 as the format, choose names etc, OK
3. review the mpg output from 2 with VLC - no blinks, and looks OK. I suppose purists would say it's lost a bit of clarity in this double stage work around, altho that would be arguable given most viewers eyesight is not perfect.

From my perspective - with project files already composed - of all the work arounds that have been discussed/tested, this one is the easiest: no extended effort to re-do the vsp's to avoid the conditions that seem to cause it (see posts in thread above), simply render thru 2 stages and let the computer do all the work.

Thanks to all.
And I hope Corel finds the cause of this fast.

[Davidk]

And, on the 'big one' - vsp is 22 mins long . . . I spoke too soon. The render of the vsp to mpeg4 failed at 10%, with an error message that I think comes from windows. I captured the display (attached) and it shows message detail as well as the render specs and the original vsp size (top RH corner)

Can anyone interpret what this error message really means?

Update
I tried this a 2nd time, after a re-boot and a clean start of VS2018. It failed again with that message at 10%, and this time I hit the re-try button. VS immediately crashed.