Is 4K capability really 4K?

[Davidk]

This may sound odd to ask, since VS has touted the ability to manage 4k files for several years.
Many cameras now include a capability of recording imagery in 4K resolution (4096x2160), and increasingly 4K screens are becoming available (expensive, tho). And there is some discussion of 8K in the industry. So one would expect that VS could use these 4K source materials to create a 4K vsp and render it to 4K for the related screen.

However, using 2018 latest SP:
- in the project properties component of settings, there is no capacity or pattern for selecting/setting a project to 4K in any of the main parts available from the list (DVD, Blu-ray, online etc)
As a result, creating a 4K project file using 4k clips looks to be impossible.
- the message about setting properties to match the first clip may present, but if there are no 4K property patterns available, that message is just window dressing.
- in Share, there is an ability to render a vsp to 4K but only as an MPEG-4 electronic file (this 4k resolution only appears in this selection, everything else is just HD). But without a 4k project pattern to work on, that seems to be likely to result in washed out HD imagery.

So, in 2018, with 4K clips available, how does one create a 4K project file? Is 4K in VS really 4K?

[tletter]

Many cameras now include a capability of recording imagery in 4K resolution (4096x2160) ... So, in 2018, with 4K clips available, how does one create a 4K project file? Is 4K in VS really 4K?

In television and consumer media, 3840 × 2160 (4K UHD) is the dominant 4K standard. VS has supported this 4K standard for years (see image).

tletter
https://www.youtube.com/user/tletter

[asik1]

David, why I can?

[lata]

Hi David
Video Studio does provide some pre-set profiles but cannot show all as the list would be endless.
The edit or new options allow us to create / select other sizes.
I guess its about time the program did list 4K by default rather than having to edit / create them.
But they are available
Settings – Movie Profile Manager
Share Mpeg4 – profile list has many options with the + creates a custom profile.
Project Properties – New or Edit
I guess it’s the later that is a little old hat, but supported with the Show Messages that will auto set 4k properties.
Resolutions………
My camera records to 3840 × 2160 for video and 5472 x 3648 for images.
Is there some confusion with 4k video and the cameras mega pixels for images.

[Davidk]

For every other form of project (defined by the general resolution of the frame size) VS has prepared project properties or templates for use. From those you can use 'as is', or make your own variation to one or several of the component items to get a custom result. I think its a bit much to ask a general user to make his or her own properties pattern to suit 4K when there doesn't seem to be any template.

My point was that altho the back end - render et al - is taken care of, the front end - starting from using the 4K clips from cameras isn't. In 2018, there's nothing in the properties format list for any type, and equally nothing in the movie profile manager that accounts for a 4k resolution-based project. Make your own - if you know how. Mostly, rely on the templates available, and for 4k there appear to be none.

FYI, I assembled the attached slide showing resolutions by frame for the main 'known' formats, to illustrate for students just how much data has to be process per frame for those higher resolution formats.

[asik1]

David, you should add 19.125 X DVD/SD ...

[tletter]

... the front end - starting from using the 4K clips from cameras isn't.

It is if you select and use the 'Show message when inserting first video clip ...' option (see image).

tletter
https://www.youtube.com/user/tletter

[lata]

It is true that Project Properties do not show a preset for 4k settings, but the New and Edit options do allow users to create there own templates.
It is not rocket science in creating those presets

The show messages will activate to copy the 4K video properties to use as project properties, no brainer.
From Share there are presets available although Same as First Clip and Same as project Settings is also available.

2018 Show Messages.jpg (48.56 KiB) Viewed 2122 times

[asik1]

David, Trevor, tletter...
If you want something to realy stick your teeth into is to check if VS's HFR support is real HFR SUPPORT..
I did few tests and I'm not 100% sure.
And you can profile for 4K HFR...

[Davidk]

Guys,
I'm talking about people - retirees in the main - who want to learn to use the editor to make stuff from their own recordings, not invent the back-room ways of creating tools to do that. "Cool" ways of doing things have given way to satisfactory results as a main interest. And increasingly new cameras come with options for 4K resolution clips, altho the units with that ability are quite a bit more expensive than the same models which are not 4K capable. The consensus seems to be that a 4K file looks much better on an ordinary large screen HD display: does not make much sense to me, since there may be more resolution in the file but the display cannot present it. But it's been very positively said, and not having a 4k display of any sort I have no way of verifying that.

So Trevor might think making your own properties file is a no-brainer, but generally I haven't had a need to make my own properties file for anything - the templates available were good enough for the DVD/HD clips from any of my cameras. So if the brains trust can outline the basic steps and where the info needed for the creation comes from, I'll have a shot at writing that process up.

[tletter]

I'm talking about people - retirees in the main - who want to learn to use the editor to make stuff from their own recordings, not invent the back-room ways of creating tools to do that.

You seem to be selling these folks short as enabling the 'Show message when inserting first video clip ...' option is set ONCE for all subsequent projects, and using the resultant suggested settings at the start of a new project only requires clicking on the YES button (see image). If these folks can't do that then it's hard to believe that they can use VS to render a video that takes many mouse clicks and related decisions.

The consensus seems to be that a 4K file looks much better on an ordinary large screen HD display: does not make much sense to me, since there may be more resolution in the file but the display cannot present it.

The main advantage of recording video at the 4K standard is that fine spatial detail is resolved well. If the rendered video quality is reduced from 4K to a 2K recording, more detail is apparent than would have be possible from a native 2K recording. An increased fineness and contrast is then possible with output to DVD and Blu-ray.

tletter
https://www.youtube.com/user/tletter

[asik1]

I wonder David why you even step into 4K territory where the needed hardware for a reasonable workflow is much more demanding, and for what? Do your studends will will do/handle a 63 min 4K project? Video Editing at that age should be fun and not a straggle.
I think you should be more practical oriented and stay HD.
my 2 cents

[Davidk]

As to the 'question' - it's by default enabled now, but it's only asked for the 1st clip. Most project have a variety of clips and pictures, but usually format of clip. So if simply answering the question as yes is all that's needed - fine, for any project. But there is still no properties template for a 4K project, for those who want to start out like that as a default selection, rather than fall into it.

As to why do it - the students have cameras they ask questions about, and this is one.

To clarify, a 4k file has each frame as that resolution. Playing that file - not an HD-rendered version thereof - onto a simple HD capable display simply won't show the fine details that tletter remarks on. I agree the file includes those things he remarks on, and have seen one in the stores on demo, and it's great. Great cost too, but becoming cheaper. Once over $4k each, about half that now, but compared to HD large screen displays still about 3-4 times the price, for very little return in the home. More if the rendered file is going to be used semi-professionally, where the display cost is tax deductible. Nevertheless, showing that super-duper resolution 4k file on an HD display - the display simply cannot do it: HD resolution is what it's made for so that's what you get. What you probably wind up with is a competition for each pixel in the display between 2 possible values that would have each been shown on a 4k unit. Fuzzy edges probably describes it.

But we are getting off the point - to make your own 4K properties format, this seems to be what's said so far:
- include a 4K clip as the first in a project sequence
- say yes to the question
- open project properties and save it as your own 'model' with a suitable name