Movies Profile Manager Issue

[RickMen]

I've been experimenting with Movie Profile Manager trying to find the optimal profile for my XAVC-S format from my Sony 4K camcorder. I have created 2 profiles, one using the NEW option where I can only set the maximum bit rate to 65Mbps, the other profile is created using the ADD option and pointing to a sample clip produced by the camcorder. The only difference between the 2 profiles is that the bit rate for the ADD profile is 100 Mbps. I have been working under the assumption that the maximum bit rate that VS2018 can handle is 65Mbps for this format. When I render the same clip using the 2 profiles I'm expecting the same output but it isn't. The ADD profile produces a bit rate of 64Mbps while the NEW profile's bit rate is 56Mbps. Can anyone shed any light on why this would be the case? It seems that the ADD option allows you to achieve a better outcome (bit rate) than what you can do through the NEW option.

BTW when I review (by selecting edit) the ADD profile is reverts the maximum bit rate back to 65 Mbps.

NEW PROFILE

New profile.PNG (5.29 KiB) Viewed 3336 times

ADD PROFILE

AddProfile.PNG (5.05 KiB) Viewed 3336 times

NEW CLIP

*** CLIP

[Ken Berry]

If you are using a template with a maximum bitrate of 65 Mbps, then obviously -- since this is the *maximum* bitrate -- the *average* bitrate will be (considerably) lower than 65 Mbps. With your ADD template, the max bitrate is 100 Mbps, then the average bitrate will be lower than that. But since VS has a lot more notional bitrate room to play around in, it is not surprising that the average bitrate from this template comes out as higher than that for the max 65 Mbps template.

And the one thing you have to remember about using ADD is that once set up, it cannot be edited. If you try, then as you found, it reverts to something else. At one time, indeed, it used to revert to SD 720 x 576/480!

[RickMen]

What I don't understand is why Corel limit the user to 65Mbps maximum bit rate through the EDIT option but allow a higher maximum bit rate limit through the ADD option. Doesn't make sense.

[Ken Berry]

I agree. But since I don't work for Corel, I have no real idea why...

[aljimenez]

What I don't understand is why Corel limit the user to 65Mbps maximum bit rate through the EDIT option but allow a higher maximum bit rate limit through the ADD option. Doesn't make sense.

The two profiles seem to produce different Mediainfo wording, the ADD one has /String attached to most of the properties, also bitrate mode and maximum bitrate are labeled with a different string. I wonder if this is significant?
What is the Mediainfo for your template Sony video file?

[RickMen]

aljimenez,

The master "ADD" template for the sony video:-

sony video master template

[lata]

Hi RickMen
I purchased a Sony camera earlier in the year so pretty new to me.
My normal video recordings would use AVCHD to keep in line with my Pana 900.

I have just run a quick video test using the Sony XAVC S 4K option, this recorded to:-
MPEG-4 Files
24 bits, 3840 x 2160, 25 fps
Frame-based
H.264 High Profile Video: 99999 Kbps
48000 Hz, 16 Bit, Stereo
LPCM Audio: 768 Kbps

Adding the clip to the timelines activated the Show Messages, my project properties were matched to the video file.
Rendering that file using Share Same as First Clip produced a video using the same properties,
As did using Same as Project settings although the data rate was now 99998Kbps

Using the Movie Profile Manager Add function also worked creating a template available from Share – Mpeg4 – profile options

The only thing I cannot do is manually input 99999kbps to any user defined template as they are limited to 65,000 but all other options seems to work.

If you have not already done so you should report this to Corel Support.

[RickMen]

Hi RickMen
I purchased a Sony camera earlier in the year so pretty new to me.
My normal video recordings would use AVCHD to keep in line with my Pana 900.

I have just run a quick video test using the Sony XAVC S 4K option, this recorded to:-
MPEG-4 Files
24 bits, 3840 x 2160, 25 fps
Frame-based
H.264 High Profile Video: 99999 Kbps
48000 Hz, 16 Bit, Stereo
LPCM Audio: 768 Kbps

Adding the clip to the timelines activated the Show Messages, my project properties were matched to the video file.
Rendering that file using Share Same as First Clip produced a video using the same properties,
As did using Same as Project settings although the data rate was now 99998Kbps

Using the Movie Profile Manager Add function also worked creating a template available from Share – Mpeg4 – profile options

The only thing I cannot do is manually input 99999kbps to any user defined template as they are limited to 65,000 but all other options seems to work.

If you have not already done so you should report this to Corel Support.

Hi Lata,

Your experience reflects my experience as well. However, what I noticed was that using either the:-

a) "my project properties matched to video file" approach or
b) Render file same as first clip approach or
c) "Movie Profile Manger Add" approach

the maximum bit rate was 100Mbs but the average video bit rate was only 64Mbs on the rendered file (using Mediainfo). The average bit rate on the raw source file was approx 98Mbs. The metadata properties displayed by VS was misleading. VS render process reduces the average video bit rate from 98Mbs to 64Mbs (35% reduction in quality). So it looks like the best that VS can do at the moment is not exceed to an average bit rate of 65Mbs. So is VS just more efficient in encoding the data or there is an upper limit?

What was the average video bit rate on your rendered clips?

[aljimenez]

Best way to test this is with a video clip of cascading water, or a river with rapidly moving water, or fast traffic. In other words something that will require lots of bits to encode. It is possible that the Sony camera encoder is not very efficient.

[lata]

Hi

attached i txt from media info for a file rendered using project proprieties.

same as project properties.mp4.txt

(4.79 KiB) Downloaded 119 times

[RickMen]

Hi Lata,

The average video bit rate of your rendered file is 90.8mbs. Well that blows my theory out of the water.

[RickMen]

Lata,

My clip was a stationery object, no movement. What was the subject of your clip?

[lata]

Hi

Stationary, a quick recording 7 seconds of the floor and my feet
New to Sony so did not realise it used those properties till i imported to Video Studio

I'll do a longer recording maybe that will give the encoder time to see the movement.

post updated
Hi
I recorded a 45 second clip panning to give some movement
The file is 500+Mb that’s very large, I wonder if the quality benefit is worth the size.
I cannot view these files at full quality as I do not have 4K TV
Playback on pc looks poor given the panning?

Data rate the same at 90+

click image for larger view

[aljimenez]

Well this is good news. The conclusion is that the VS encoder is quite efficient and able to inch up in bitrate when it needs to do so.