Video/audio going out of synch VS X9

[JohnJ]

Sorry about this long explanation. I have a weird issue where where the video/audio remain in synch in a project (even after manually saving) until I close VS down for the day. Next day I open the project, and check the synchronization at the beginning and end, and while the beginning is OK, its out of synch at some stages before at the end. It appears to be that some transitions which were OK and saved earlier have now disappeared.

Just to explain what I have been doing. VS X9 has the latest update. I am on Windows 10 with a Core i5 (2nd gen) with 16GB RAM and a Nvidia GT440 which I have been running OK with Smart Proxy if I leave it for a while after enabling. I have an SSD for Windows and programs, and a 3Tb hard drive for documents and data. I use Multi-camera editing in my projects as I work with amateur drama/musicals with 2 or 3 consumer level Canon video cameras, and sound recorded separately from a sound desk. I am familiar with Ripple Editing and so I lock the video and audio tracks. I put in Transitions (usually 1 second) in MCE during the songs. I have made probably 2 projects previously where the editing went well with no synchronization issues. The drama/musicals are run over multiple nights and all sessions are recorded. Previously the one session with least mistakes was chosen for video editing.

The current project has been different in that we have used most of the recording from one session, and some recording from another session has been substituted in certain parts. Its like 2 projects were worked on, both using MCE, then transferred to the main timeline. Then one of these was exported in m2t format, imported into the other, then split up and the parts put in the top right of the Editing window. Then parts cut out and substitutes dragged in. I saved, and checked video/audio synch and it was all OK. Closed down VS, and closed down the PC. Next day started the PC, started VS, opened the project and synch was OK at the beginning, but out during it. It appears to be that some transitions which were OK and saved earlier have now disappeared. I have been creating a new project name at stages during the project so that I can go back to a previous version if something goes wrong, but I have wasted so many hours on this, and I keep going around in circles as it keeps stuffing up and I have to go back to an earlier stage, work on it again and then it stuffs up again.

I have checked the data drive using Windows - disk error checking, and a Western Digital diagnostic where I ran a thorough check for about 7 hours and found no problems. The OCZ SSD Utility also shows no problems with the SSD. I am running Kaspersky Internet Security, have run a scan with no problems detected. I recently reinstalled Windows 10 and have done all the updates. I reinstalled VS X9 from files I originally downloaded but somehow I accidentally was running in trial mode even though I put the code in. This was later fixed up by Corel Support and I downloaded X9 again from a link they gave me. This should have nothing to do with it, but just mentioning anyway.

Any ideas?

[lata]

Hi John

Do not worry about the long explanation I think that was required.
I think I understand what you are trying to achieve?

Not sure what effect combining several MCE projects will have on the timeline sync?
Normally we would use the same nights recordings.
MCE project files although VSP’s are different to the standard VSP.
For a MCE vsp if we change the duration of a clip the adjacent clip will also be adjusted to retain the sync, the total duration of the project will remain the same, if that makes sense.
So mixing MCE VSP’s could affect that?

I am sure you are the first to raise this issue.
When using MCE depending on the settings you choose affects the final VSP’s content
It could have a single clip across the top timeline, other options may split the clip using several timelines and a sound track.

If you use the same nights recordings there is no issues, I assume that is correct
If you now render the first MCE project you could use the new video file to combine with the second nights raw recordings. Although reading your post you have done that?
If you used MCE for both nights, did you try rendering both VSP’s to M2T, then combine the two new video files?

Thoughts on using MCE, we can set the audio to use the video clips audio.
The video used on Camera 1 determines the frame rate of the projects timeline fps
Are all camera recordings using the same fps?
When you render to m2t did you use the same frame rate?

As I said earlier MCE VSP’s are special and do not react the same as a normal VSP’s

[JohnJ]

I would have replied earlier but I had issues logging into the forum, and the workaround was to change my browser from Chrome to Edge.

Thanks lata, I think you seem to have a good grasp of what I was explaining. Thanks for your analysis and suggestions.

The cameras were using the same FPS, which was 50i

You said 'If you used MCE for both nights, did you try rendering both VSP’s to M2T, then combine the two new video files?'. No I did not try that. I only tried rendering one and creating a new video file which I transferred to the other project. But rendering both VSPs to M2T, then combining them may work, I will give that a try. If that works I will write on my instructions 'IF COMBINING 2 PROJECTS WHERE MCE IS USED, RENDER AND PRODUCE BOTH TO M2T, THEN COMBINE THE 2 VIDEO FILES'. That will save me many hours of wasted time.

[lata]

Hi

Your rendered files could be any format I only chose m2t after your first post
But once you have the two files you could use MCE again to choose the new camera angles?

Let us know how you get on with this sync issue………..

[JohnJ]

Just to let you know, rendering both VSPs to M2T, then combining them after that did work, and there were no problems with going out of synch. I will remember this in future for combining videos from different sessions where I have used Multi Camera. It would have been good for the VideoStudio User Guide to warn about not bringing a rendered VSP into an active non-rendered VSP. At least I know now. Thanks for your help 'lata'.

[WAPMAN]

I have similar problem.
Using VideoStudio Ultimate X9 on i7 computer.
Done lots of projects before with no video/sound synch problems.
Latest project was an amateur show I videoed. Lasts 147 minutes and under MPEG2 format estimated size is 8.59GB.
Obviously need to reduce to 4.7GB to fit on standard DVD disc.
Did this using MPEG2 and MPEG Optimiser to produce final out put size of 4.683GB.
Interestingly video/sound synch is OK at start and end of project but for a section in middle there is a very clear difference between video and audio.
At a loss to explain why this has happened on this project.
Anyone able to help me.
WAPMAN

[canuck]

Easy to explain. You are compressing the video too much. A standard DVD can only hold 60 minutes of video at best quality. In order to squeeze 147 minutes onto the DVD the video and audio have to be compressed so much that eventually a lot of video/audio data gets discarded and the quality becomes terrible and unwatchable. You should split the project into two 75 segments and burn each to DVD. The quality will still not be "best" but should be Ok. Forget about the optimizer, in my opinion it has no real effect on your result.
You could also use a Double Layer DVD but many have had problems there also. In fact I do not even see the DL DVDs in stores anymore.

[lata]

Hi
Canuck is correct that 147 minutes is far to long for a standard DVD.
Seems unusual that the sync was ok at the beginning and end of the video and out in the middle.
I assume you applied some edits to your files, then rendered to a new file.
Are you sure that the original footage was in sync throughout.? 2 hrs 27 min is a long time to check the sync?

I would cut the project into two, render each section to see if you still get the audio sync issue.
a data rate of 7000kbps would do for a 75 minute video.
I have just run a quick check on Optimiser that seems to use 3200kbps for any length of video?
I would create my own Mpeg2 template, even so will still have to reduce the size


By the way what are the properties of the original video?

[WAPMAN]

Thanks for your prompt reply Canuck and Trevor. The show had 2 acts, so will put Act 1 on one DVD and Act 2 on another DVD.
I am a novice compared to the experts on the forum but I am puzzled by this fact: One can buy a commercial DVD, of say a film, which lasts as long as 2.5hrs,
how do they manage to fit all this on one DVD?
My procedure is as follows:
I download the raw footage from my Panasonic HD HC-X800 camera using the Panasonic software HD Writer AE 4.1 to produce a m2ts file(s).
I then import the m2ts files into Corel Video studio X9 19.7.10.12 (64bit Ultimate) and edit or add titles etc etc.
Then, if the project is larger than 4.7Gb, I render the project in CVS9 using the Share menu and use MPEG2 and the MPEG Optimiser to render the size to below 4.7GB.
Because I have had problems in the past with DVDs not being playable after burning them using the DVD option under Share, I create a .iso file and use this to burn copies of the DVD under CVS9 Tools menu option - Burn from disc image (.iso). Using this approach I have had no problems with DVDs being unplayable.

The footage was definitely in synch all the way through the project when the size was 8.6Gb before rendering under MPEG 2 under Share Menu.
Where can i read about what data rate to use?
Finally Trevor - not sure what you mean about 'properties of the original video?.

I have just checked DVDs from previous years shows, which I have done, and note the running times were between 124mins and 152minutes and each is just on one DVD and the quality is satisfactory???!! Hence reason why I was puzzled by this year's video. I have done nothing different to previous years DVDs - as far as i know.

[Ken Berry]

One can buy a commercial DVD, of say a film, which lasts as long as 2.5hrs, how do they manage to fit all this on one DVD?

Commercial DVD producers use a very different system. First off, they have very expensive equipment/software which goes through the video many times, calculating what each section needs to use as a small bitrate in order to squeeze as much video as possible on the disc. And just as significantly, commercial DVDs are pressed from a pristine master disc which has the video heavily compressed on it to minimize space as calculated by the multiple passes I've just mentioned. Video Studio only allows two passes for this calculation (and most users don't use more than one pass); and the burning process home users are confined to is less efficient than pressing.

Where can i read about what data rate to use?

Home DVD's can only have a maximum bitrate for video AND audio of 10,000 kbps, though in practice a video bitrate of 8000 kbps is the maximum advisable. Above that, and some DVD burners and/or stand-alone players might have trouble playing it or play it erratically. So we say you should use a maximum bitrate of 8000 kbps. But with video, the higher the bitrate, the larger the video file will be -- though equally, the higher the bitrate, the higher the quality. As a rule of thumb, a bitrate of 8000 kbps will give the best quality video for a DVD, but will only allow an hour of video (or up to 70 minutes if you use highly compressed Dolby audio) to be burnt on a single layer DVD. If your video runs for 90 to 100 minutes, you would need to reduce the bitrate to around 7000 kbps, though that should still give pretty good quality. If the video runs for 120 minutes, the bitrate would need to be 4000 kbps, though at best that will look like VHS video tape quality. If the video is longer than that, many of us would find the quality unacceptable, though of course quality is in the eye of the beholder, and you are at least starting with High Def video, though reducing it to standard def for the DVD.

...not sure what you mean about 'properties of the original video?

If you right click on one of your original video clips, either in the Video Studio library window or the timeline, you can choose "Properties". This will tell you and us important information about the format of the video, the codec used, whether it is interlaced (Upper or Lower Field First) or Frame Based/Progressive; its frame rate; its bitrate; and details of the audio. You need to be aware of these things, especially when mixing video from different sources, some of which might clash with the rest, or where you are intending to produce different format video.

We will more often than not ask you for these Properties as they are often essential if we are to provide you with useful advice if you encounter a problem.

[WAPMAN]

Right clicking on the m2ts file downloaded from the camera and then Properties reveals the following:
FILE
File Format PAL HDMV
File Size: 3,415,542KB
Duration: 1147.200 seconds
VIDEO
Type H.264 video
Total Frames: 57,360 frames
Attributes: 24bits, 1920x1080 16:9
Frame Rate: 50.000frames/sec
Data Rate: Variable bit rate (Max 25000kps)
AUDIO
Type: Dolby Digital Audio
Total Sample: 55.065.600 sample
Attribute: 48000Hz
Layer: none
Bitrate: 25kps

Thanks Ken for your explanations detailed above. Most informative.

[WAPMAN]

What is meant by Upper or Lower Field First,please?
There are so many options in CVS9, particularly deep down into the menus and not sure what they all do, so generally leave them at the default settings.

[lata]

Hi
Your question is ringing bells?????

Video can be Progressive or Interlaced
Progressive uses full frames, so 50P would contain 50 fps.
For interlacing 50i would indicate 50 half frames creating 25 fps.
The terminology is a little confusing when we say 50i is the same as 25fps
Each frame contain 2 half a frame an upper frame and a lower frame
Which plays first depends on the original recording hardware

Older DV-Avi used Lower Field whereas analogue VHS would use Upper Field
Then HD video was introduced which also uses Upper Field
The half frames are played in order of original recording, reversing that will cause poor quality, jagged edges.
Video Studio now defaults to using Upper Field First, so only when using older videos would / could we have a problem.

However….
Your video appears to use 50P so should not have any problems with interlacing.
When we add our first video to a new project we receive a message to match the project settings.
This sets the timeline frame size and as important the frame rate, setting 50P correctly ensures your video will display every frame.
I have viewed these posts and do not see any reference to Show Messages.

Please view F6 Preferences to make sure Show Messages is ticked.

Maybe the problem???
Having viewed the posts again you appear to be rendering to Mpeg2 and indeed by default will use Upper Field.
As your original video are progressive you should create a new Mpeg2 template to use progressive, and just to confuse that is known as frame Based.
Go to Share- Mpeg2- select the “+”
Give the template a new name ( Mpeg2 Progressive)
General Tab – change the Frame Type to Frame Based
Compression Tab – if you need a lower data rate reduce 8000kbps to 7000kbps
Depends on the length of your video.

Now the question is does rendering from 50P to 50i cause the audio issue?
And does DVD support 50P 720 x 576 / 480