32 bit v 64 bit plugin issues

[brucet]

This would have to be one of the biggest subjects discussed here on these forums. So it's time to find a 'better' solution.

It's way to easy to say "install the 32 bit version of PSP and you can run your 32 bit plugins". But in reality that's a PITA solution. eg, I'm using 64 bit PSP. I'm working on a multi layered project. I want to use a 32 bit plugin in on one layer. So what do I do? I can save that layer. Open the 32 bit version of PSP. Open the saved layer/file. Open the 32 bit plugin. Save the results. Back to the 64 bit version. Open and reload the modified file/layer. Insert it back into my project. "Oh darn it. Wrong affect". Close and start all over again. No thanks. It's too sloppy. Bad work flow and very inefficient use of time and effort.

There is a 'better' way. But it needs Corel to make one simple change. I use Photoline as my go to editor. Photoline allows for an external editor. Simply highlight the layer. Select 'external editor', choose which editor. (In my case PSPx8). The layer opens up in PSP. Do whatever I want in PSP. When happy close the file and it automatically reappears in Photoline. In affect the 'external editor' is acting just like a plugin.
Now if Corel allowed PSP to have an external editor feature like Photoline you could simply send a layer/file over to the 32 bit version of PSP and back again when finished. The 32 bit version could simply act like any other plugin. Albeit in this case a plugin for plugins.

Another example. I use Photoline as my go to editor. I also use Topaz Studio plugins. However there is currently an issue between Photoline and Topaz Studio. So my workaround is to use Photoline. Then when I need to use Topaz on a layer I select the layer. Select my external editor, PSP. Once the layer is open in PSP, (takes all of about 2 seconds to do), I open the Topaz plugin. Work on the file. Close the plugin. Close the file in PSP and the layer automatically appears back in Photoline. As I said. The external editor is just acting like a plugin.

The 32 bit can simply be regarded as a plugin. No need to open and close different versions of the same program just to be able to use a 32 plugin.

But it needs Corel to have a hard look at the problem. Take a leaf out of Photolines book and do the same.

EDIT - I need to add another complication. Or more. Photoline allows for layers that are 8 bit - 16- bit or 32 bit. Plus various colour profiles etc etc. If Corel was to introduce an external editor there could/would be issues working with certain files and formats.

regards

[JoeB]

I have been playing with a modification of the JSJ script and can achieve almost the same thing starting with an image in 64bit PSP, but for one limitation caused by PSP that has a workaround for many people, and also because I could use a bit more detail about the procedure you use in Photoline. It's the second item I need information about for the moment.

When you say that you can select a layer in an open image in Photoline and then send it to PSP, does that layer have to be visible in the image window itself or, if you highlight a layer in the Layers palette in Photoline that is hidden under other layers is the highlighted but hidden layer what opens in PSP? And when it is returned to Photoline as a layer, is it returned as a layer above the one you had highlighted or at the top of the stack so that the processed layer is immediately visible even though the original layer that was sent for processing is still hidden under other layers?

EDIT - ADDED QUESTION: Also, if the layer you are sending to PSP has - in Photoline - semi transparent properties or even has some parts of the layer which are completely transparent, does that layer appear in PSP with that existing transparency and, after being processed by the 32bit plugin, is it returned to Photoline with the effect and with the layer still having its original transparency properties?

I ask all this because, at present, if I want the image sent to a 32bit PSP it either can go as a single image that is a copy of whatever image is the visible image in the image window in 64bit PSP regardless of the one highlighted in the Layers palette or, if I send it as a .pspimage file, it sends the whole file, including all layers, to the 32bit PSP with the existing visible layer on top but with the layer I had highlighted in the Layers palette the one that the plugins work on. But you can't see it unless you make it visible first (move it to top, or view current only, etc.).

So I need to know the details of how it works in Photoline with PSP to see which track I should follow. But the more I've now thought about it I don't see much to be gained by sending the whole, layer filled .pspimage to the 32bit program. But I really could still use the info requested!

[LeviFiction]

Kind of a fun option if you're interested,

you can copy the layer to a new image and save out that image. Visibility won't matter than as you can just use "ShowAll" on the resultant image. Then save it out as a PNG to preserve the transparency. Don't close the image. Just use "SelectAll" before opening the image in an external editor. Once the editor is closed call "FileRevert" and it'll load up the changes. Then just copy and paste. No closing and opening of images. It doesn't really matter, which method you use, just thought you might find it a fun option to use Revert like that.

I think it's smartest to restrict the script to Raster layers and no groups or multiple layers. It just makes life so much simpler. At least at the start.

[JoeB]

Kind of a fun option if you're interested,

you can copy the layer to a new image and save out that image. Visibility won't matter than as you can just use "ShowAll" on the resultant image. Then save it out as a PNG to preserve the transparency. Don't close the image. Just use "SelectAll" before opening the image in an external editor. Once the editor is closed call "FileRevert" and it'll load up the changes. Then just copy and paste. No closing and opening of images. It doesn't really matter, which method you use, just thought you might find it a fun option to use Revert like that.

I think it's smartest to restrict the script to Raster layers and no groups or multiple layers. It just makes life so much simpler. At least at the start.

Thanks for the hints! And I do agree that it's best to keep the script to a single raster layer to work with. I actually added the edit question to my previous post because I was already thinking of using PNG to preserve transparency. And I had also been thinking of copying the desired layer to a new image and using that, just realizing it will require somewhat more coding/recoding the original script to make the whole thing work. But yes, those are excellent thoughts, so appreciate them! Will likely be working on variations tomorrow.

It would still be interesting to find out how Photoline handles all that stuff however.

[brucet]

JoeB I'll try and keep this 'simple' as I'm a user not a tech 'nerd'!!

I open Photoline. Open a 16 bit tiff. Duplicate the tiff and now have two layers. (I could have many layers. But I'll stick to just two for clarity).
I could save the file as a Photoline PL file but again for clarity I'll leave it as a 2 layer image. (Keep in mind Photoline can have different formats for each layer).
I make the top layer active. (It could be any layer). Do some basic editing. Curves etc. Then I want to do something in Topaz Studio which Photoline is currently having issues with. (This is a random issues and not typical of all Photoline setups. Or Photoshop which is having the same problem).
Now in Photoline I select External editor and select PSP. The active layer will open automatically in PSP. In PSP I can use all of PSP's functions. Including the Topaz Studio plugins. When I'm finished in PSP I simply close the open image. It will open automatically back in Photoline with all the PSP/Topaz edits. Just as though the edits had been done in Photoline.

External Editor is acting just like a plugin.

The layer has to be the active layer. It doesn't have to be visible. Just the active layer.
An Adjustment layer will come up blank. But the parent layer will carry the adjustment layer, and associated adjustments, over to PSP.
Layers retain their location in a stack.
Transparencies are a 'bit' complicated. A tiff layer in Photoline with a transparent or semi transparent section may come back to Photoline with some artifacts. It's a compatability issue that Photoline is aware of. However there is a work around. In PSP you can save the image/layer as a PNG file and import that as a layer back in Photoline. Clumsy but a work around. However PSP sees the transparency fine. It only sometimes has issues returning that transparency to Photoline. It seems Corel/PSP does something to transparencies. Other programs work fine.

Conclusion. Transparency issues aside layers in Photoline can be sent to PSP and edited/changed and sent back to Photoline just as though PSP was a part of Photoline. It's very seamless. I've no doubt there are other issues that I haven't come across but for me it's a great option.
Some readers may wonder why I love Photoline and yet persist with PSP. Simple. No one editor does everything and does it perfectly. With my work I need some features of PSP that while Photoline does and does well. I feel more comfortable doing in PSP. "Old dog new tricks" syndrome.

JoeB if you have specific test that needs doing give me a yell and I'll see what results I get. Keep in mind I'm NOT and expert Photoline user.

Below I've pasted a post from an old forum discussion where Photoline user points out some of Photolines features. If Corel was to include an 'External Editor' feature then maybe some of these features would become available to PSP users.

regards

Credit goes to Herbert123.

Ordinarily I would never sign up for a forum merely to respond to a post, but this is just asking for a rebuttal

You could not be further from the truth. Honestly.

* warning: long post *

Photoshop has been my weapon of choice as a professional user since v4, and three months ago I stumbled upon Photoline while browsing. Up to that point I had never heard of it before - and I've worked with just about every image editor that exist(s)/(ed) on multiple platforms, starting with Deluxe Paint on the Amiga.

In the last two years I'd been on the lookout for a true Photoshop alternative in regards to professional image editing. I grew tired of Adobe's strategy for Photoshop: instead of improving the core image editing functionality, they only seem to be interested in bolting on more fluff to justify the high upkeep. Over the years I tried all potential alternatives, free, commercial, open source, and what not, and quickly realized nothing came close to replacing my 'beloved' Photoshop.

Enter Photoline. Had never heard of it, and just pure chance landed me on their web pages. First thought: absolutely dismal website, horrible campy looking examples, tutorials with neon disco effects... Your first reaction equalled mine: "This cannot be any good, it looks rubbish", and I almost closed the browser window. But I thought, "What the heck, I've tried everything by now, let's at least give it a quick look."

I was gobsmacked the first time I loaded it up. Thoughts running through my mind: How could I have missed this gem? It's been on the market for a very long time Why does almost no-one mention - and is unaware of - Photoline? Why is the website so excruciatingly unprofessional looking?

Honestly, I do not know - I only know Photoline has opened up a new approach of image editing for me. I haven't touched Photoshop in two months, or so: I now do my main jobs in Photoline. This coming from someone who has been an Adobe Certified Expert, and is an Adobe software instructor teaching image editing professionals these last 12 years. I am not impressed easily.

And you know what: biggest (pleasant) surprise! The image editing tools are, for the most part, on par with Photoshop, and in a number of very crucial areas, actually outperform Photoshop by a fair margin - yes, you read that right. Some of the things that wow'ed me are:

- full 8/16/32bit per channel support. Full HDR support.

- each layer can be set to its own image mode in the same document! Read the previous line again, and understand its implications. That means: you may freely combine monochrome. greyscale, rgb, cmyk and lab(!) layers simultaneously in the same layer stack. And at the same time RGB/CMYK/LAB layers can be set to 8/16/32 bit per channel as well. Any combination! Far superior to any other image editing app I have encountered so far. No more switching between image modes to attain a certain effect. No more silly smart objects as a work-around. A simple palette with a drop down menu is all you need to convert individual layers to any other image mode and any bit-depth.

- virtual layers: instanced clones of a layer.

- full layer management (layer groups, etc.).

- curves can be applied to rgb and cmyk layers in Lab mode without switching that layer to lab mode. More advanced users will appreciate the meaning of this. Far superior to Photoshop.

- filters and adjustments function in all bit-depths for the most part (newest beta versions have improved this even further).

- the opacity slider for a layer can be set from a range starting at -200 up to +200. Yes, you read that correct. Photoshop feels incredibly limited in comparison, This also applies to adjustment and filter layers! It opens up a whole new workflow.

- in photoshop we are limited to only one layer mask per layer. This artificial limitation forces one to use work-arounds for more complex masking, but Photoline sets no limit to the number of layer masks we wish to add! Very liberating.

- Multi page support. Import as many pdf pages as you like. Document mode and DTP like features for layouts. Full vector support.

- full colour management.

- Non-destructive adjustment layers like Photoshop, and filter layers without the need to resort to arbitrary smart objects which are awkward to work with.

- control of anti-aliasing on a per layer basis!

- layer effects and advanced "blend if" for layers like Photoshop

- bitmap scaling & rotation with Lanczos 8!

- non-destructive scaling and rotation.

- scales with multiple CPUs/cores.

- no Adobe drm nonsense.

- full 64bit and 32bit version for both mac and pc. Mac Retina support (beta version).

- less than 20mb(!) installation file. Kinda refreshing after 1.5gb of Photoshop installation files.

- portable if you so wish.

...and the list goes on and on. I am now on the beta list, and developers are extremely sensitive to the wishes of their user base. For example, a couple of weeks ago I mentioned to them how useful it would be to have the middle mouse button to act as the hand tool (like Gimp, Inkscape or Blender), as well as ctrl-clicking a layer to load up a mask based on transparency (Photoshop) And just last week I wished for a function to save all layers to individual files. All of it now implemented in the newest beta, as well as a bonus option to load up the luminance values as a mask. Their support is brilliant, and they are very open to (rational) suggestions to improve Photoline.

Anyway, I am starting to rave a bit here. Before I sound like a religious zealot, I should mention its drawbacks:

- the English documentation is lacking, and almost nothing can be found online in regards to tutorlals or other support. No books either .

- The painting tools are at a PS cs3 or before level - not bad, but hardly comparable to the current PS version.

- The interface lags behing the functionality in places, and the default interface just looks... bad, with those colourful icons (which can be changed though to better looking ones). The look of the interface deters some people from using it in my experience, and writing it off as "unprofessional".

- And some of the terminology and English translations are hair-raisingly odd/bad (levels --> "Histogram Correction", Selections are "Lassos").

- Complex projects with a high number of layers will slow down Photoline operation more than Photoshop currently.

- Coming from Photoshop some dialogs are inefficient. (But this is balanced out by many dialogs in Photoline being better designed than Photoshop's equivalents, so it varies.

- The channel palette is not nearly as useful as Photoshop's version. The workflow is quite different in Photoline.

- Saving selections/masks to a channel is an option that is lacking as well. They can be saved in the layer palette, which is an advantage or drawback, depending on your viewpoint.

- And the workflow is quite different in places compared to Photoshop - sometimes (much) easier, and at times almost frustrating (to a long time PH user set in his ways .

- There is also no video or 3d support - for advanced image editing no-one will miss these (on the contrary: students of mine tend to complain about all the fluff that's been added to Photoshop's core these last couple of years). I work in 3d myself, and even I hardly understand why Adobe got sidetracked by the half-hearted 3d painting tools. I never use them: cumbersome and slow. Nevertheless, other people seem to like them, so if you are looking for this type of functionality you are out of luck.

- no perspective editing filter.

- some of Photoshop's CS6 new layer management features are very nice, like filtering and a search. These are not present in Photoline.

- Photoline misses the "bling" of Photoshop. Hard to describe this in better terms. I suppose Photoshop has become a cultural icon - I mentioned to some of my colleagues I switched to Photoline, and their expressions went blank. The concept of a true alternative for pure image editing does not fit the current paradigm.

As far as image editing is concerned Photoline is on par with Photoshop: sometimes superior, sometimes not as good, most of the time the required functionality is present in both apps. And most well-written Photoshop plugins work in Photoline.

In a nutshell: do not let the looks of the website deceive you. Download the fully functional trial, and give a fair chance (unlearn Photoshop - was the hard part for me): Photoline may surprise you, and the financial upkeep is ridiculously low (29 euro to update to a new full-point version!).

Oh, and Gimp falls flat on its face in comparison to Photoline. It just can't compete. Though I still do keep it around for certain features.

[leahcimi]

Have you looked at AlphaPlugins Bridge:
https://www.alphaplugins.com/products/p ... prod_id=19
Works well for me.

[JoeB]

@LeviFiction,

Sorry, but I had assumed that doing some research would have given me a working knowledge of the ShowAll and FileRevert options you mentioned but so far I haven't learned much at all and not sure if I would know how to properly implement them in the existing script if I did.

So, at present, my script works fine but is one you might consider somewhat clunky, because it first has to make a copy of the layer the user wants to apply the 32bit plugin to, send that for processing, return that to the copy of the image in the 64bit program, copy that, close that image and then paste the copied image as a new layer in the original image from which the layer was taken. But it does work.

I have used .pspimage for saving out the layer simply because the 32bit PSP being used as the 32bit plugin handler will accept any transparency values in the image assuming there are some, like the transparency around a small image non transparent image - as in a collage layer - within the larger layer size. And the new layer in the 64bit program will retain them. I wasn't sure how to implement that with the script using PNG and, if .pspimage format does it, then it was just easier for me with my limited knowledge. Of course, there's still the version of the script that sends the whole image with all layers to the 32bit PSP and which executes more elegantly, but I'm not sure I can see why most - if any - users would want to do that.

And now that I think of it, I suspect that most users who have 32bit plugins that they really want to use are actually quite happy just using 32bit PSP and, for their normal needs, don't see any perceptible advantage to using 64bit PSP, unless perhaps they work on very large and/or very many large images and also use brushes that might work faster and smoother in 64bit PSP.

[JoeB]

@brucet,

You said to check back with any other questions. Basically, I'm just trying to determine the limitations of the script I'm working on, which I admit there are going to be some compared to a program that has a built-in option to use an external editor.

Question - 3 parts:

1) If a version of PSP is already open in your computer but then you start working in Photoline, if you send your image to PSP does everything go as expected and as you described, or does PSP have to be closed before you sent an image/layer to it from Photoline?

2) Regardless of the answer to (1), after you add a filter to the image you sent to PSO, do you just have to close that specific image in PSP and it automatically appears in Photoline with Photoline automatically becoming the active program, or do you have to close AND save the changes you made to the image in PSP but can still leave PSP open as a program?

3) If you can leave PSP open but the image is still returned to Photoline and it become the active program, can you sent another image/layer from Photoline to the already opened PSP and the whole process can be repeated many times without ever having to close PSP? I ask because of the possibility that, while you might not have to close PSP manually, perhaps it closes automatically after the image is retrieved in Photoline. You'd be able to determine if PSP stays open or is actually being closed and then re-opened when the next image is sent by seeing if it still shows as open in the taskbar once you're back in Photoline with your first manipulation in PSP.

Answers to those questions will not likely change how the script I'm modifying will work at present because I realize that there may be some limitations to what I can presently accomplish with it. But it will help me to understand those present limitations that might exist and perhaps in future I - or others - will come up with better capabilities for it. And I don't expect that Corel is going to provide external editor support in the near future!

On another note, to what extent are the toolbars and menus user-configurable in Photoline as compared to PSP, and what method do they use for the equivalent of python scripting which, in PSP, adds both even more user configurability as well as process automation?

Thanks!

[brucet]

JoeB.

1/ - If I open Photoline and send a layer to PSP via 'External Editor' PSP will open automatically if not already open. If PSP is already open the layer simply appears in PSP. Regardless if Photoline opens PSP or if PSP is already open PSP works just normally. ie PSP shows no indication of operating differently regardless of where the file came from. Once finished PSP remains open.

2/ - Once finished in PSP all I have to do is close the image. It then automatically appears, with edits, in Photoline. No saving or closing of PSP. (Unless I want to save in another file format. ie Sometimes there are issues with certain transparencies. In that case I do a 'save as' and open that saved file as a layer in Photoline).

3/ - Once Photoline and PSP are open Photoline can send files/layers back and forth to PSP multiple times. Remember Photoline is using PS just as though PSP was a plugin. PSP never closes unless it is closed manually in the normal way. ie after closing Photoline you need to close PSP.

At first glace Photoline UI is very clunky/dated. However menus and tool bars are fully customizable. I found setting up my own Photoline UI far easier than PSP's method. However Photoline is 'basic' No drop shadows and fancy button. Very plain jane but also very functionable. If you are looking for a whizbang UI Photoline is not for you. However I find it works well for me.

Photoline has 'Actions'. Simply hit the 'Record' button. Start working. Hit the 'Stop' button when finished and give your new 'Action' a name. (There's a pause button etc. You can also stop and start actions and skip steps). I have my Actions all in their own side menu visible all the time. One click and they jump into action!!!!

Caveat - I'm not a Photoline 'expert'. I'm a user. I'm sure the folks on the Photoline users forum would be happy to answer your more technical questions for you. The developers at Photoline keep a close eye on the forum. Answer questions. Listen to suggestions. Fix bugs asap.
Keep in mind I'm not bagging PSP. I've been a happy user since PSP4. I like both editors. The simple fact is that Photoline is a far more advanced editor. But does take some learning and is not on my recommended list for beginners. The download of PSP is around 500meg!! The download of Photoline is 22 meg. That tells you something!

regards