How to render DVD quality video without losing quality?

[jungleexplorer]

This is a problem I have dealt with for years and have never been able to solve the problem. When I import video content from a DVD to use in a video and then render it, the final product ends up worse then the original and of a larger files size.

Let me give you an example. Say I import a 1GB video from a DVD, which will be Mpeg 2, 720 x 480, 24 bits, 29.970 FPS. So let's say, after editing, I render that video in VS (I am using X9 Ultimate) to the exact same format, (Mpeg 2, 720 x 480, 24 bits, 29.970 FPS), the resulting video will have noticeable quality loss, but be about twice the files size of the original video (i.e. 2GB).

Why is this, and how do I correct it?

[MrJohnny]

What do you do with the video once imported to VS? Have you fullfilled all the preconditions to enable Smart Render? Is the quality loss blurry/artifacts etc?
What do you do with the exported file, burn to DVD?

John

[jungleexplorer]

What do you do with the video once imported to VS? Have you fullfilled all the preconditions to enable Smart Render? Is the quality loss blurry/artifacts etc?
What do you do with the exported file, burn to DVD?

John

I usually am editing the video when I import it into VS. Like, cutting and splicing. Maybe some transitions or additional audio tracts, or color and brightness enhancement. Stuff like that. Yes, I have SR enabled. The quality loss is that the rendered video look grainy, or pixelated. The rendered file will be used as digital file to be watched on a computer or smart TV. Sometimes uploaded to Youtube.

[MrJohnny]

Hi

What is the quality like if you import your 1GB MPEG file into VS, do nothing to it, then export it using Smart Render to an MPEG file?
Also, compare the original file size to the newly rendered one.
Use MediaInfo/GSpot to examine the before and after files.
As you have suffered this for years, what other NLEs have produced the inferior MPEG file?

John

[jungleexplorer]

Hi

What is the quality like if you import your 1GB MPEG file into VS, do nothing to it, then export it using Smart Render to an MPEG file?
Also, compare the original file size to the newly rendered one.
Use MediaInfo/GSpot to examine the before and after files.
As you have suffered this for years, what other NLEs have produced the inferior MPEG file?

John

So I did some testing. I imported some chapters from different DVDs. On some SR worked during render and the resulting file was just slightly smaller in data size and the quality was about the same. But on other DVD imports, SR did not work at all and the resulting file was 30 to 40% larger and of lesser quality. After examining the original imported files properties, I found that the files had a Variable Data Rate (VDR) of 9800, where as VS standard DVD Mpeg 2 settings was set to render a VDR of only 8000. So I tried to create a custom rendering format to match these settings, but VS will only allow VDR of a maximum of 9696. So I set it to this maximum setting of 9696 and tried a render, but SR still does not work. The resulting file is larger then the original, but the quality is comparable.

MediaInfo will not run on my computer (Windows 10). Windows Defender blocks it. So, I tried Gspot. It worked, but it is very confusing and poorly laid out and I can't find a way to save the data to a file to show you. Not sure what I you want me to look for anyway.

I seldom work with MPG files outside of working with imports from DVDs. All of my modern video equipment record to 720P (AVI) or 1080P (MOV and MTS). When rendering videos that contain content in multiple formats, I always render to the format of the best quality content.

Thanks for your help.

[Ken Berry]

Just be aware that if you are importing or using video imported from commercial DVDs, those discs are produced in a completely different way from the 'burning' process used by Video Studio and other home video editing programs. This, moreover, accounts for the difficulties you are having with regard to setting the bitrate higher than 8000 kbps.

Commercial DVDs are printed from a master disc, and the latter is produced on extremely expensive equipment which uses much more sophisticated software than is available to a home editor. It allows very high bitrates, which equate to higher quality though larger files; but importantly it allows multiple passes which allows the software to squeeze down the size of the files to the maximum possible while still retaining high quality.

Home video editors like Video Studio on the other hand, use a burning process which records video/audio to single discs via laser. Moreover, they are restricted to a maximum bitrate of both the video and audio taken together of 10,000 kbps. But the real problem is that most stand-alone DVD players have difficulty playing DVDs recorded with bitrates over 8000 kbps. Sometimes higher bitrates just won't play at all, though sometimes they might play but do so erratically. This can be further complicated by the fact that some DVD players are very picky about the physical nature of some discs, and might also not play or play erratically if they don't "like" the colour of the disc or something else about it.

In addition, Video Studio only allows two passes, which allows some improvement in quality with slightly reduced file sizes, but nowhere near the degree which is achieved on commercial DVDs. VS also allows the raising of the default quality/rendering time from 70% to 100% -- though by its nature rendering time to produce slightly better quality output is considerably increased. Look at my attached image of how you do this -- the window is what you get when you go to set Custom properties for a DVD-compatible mpeg-2.

[jungleexplorer]

Yes, some of the dvds I am working from, I guess would be classified as Commercial, although they were not made by Hollywood companies. They are old Gospel films that were created by small Christian production companies back in the 1980s for the purpose of evangelism. Originally they were on Reel to Reel Film, and later converted to VHS. At some point they were remastered and put on DVDs. I am converting them to digital for some missionaries that use them in Mexico, for use with there new video digital equipment that has built in memory storage. I am doing some custom editing on them as well to fit the desires of the missionaries, which requires for me to re-render them. Obviously, there is not a whole lot of quality to begin with, so any quality loss at this point is big.

[canuck]

First of all, turn off Windows Defender if it blocks MediaInfo. I have never seen any post on problems with installing MediaInfo or running it. It is one of the best programs to examine video properties.

How long in time is the video on the DVD you are importing from? Do those files you are importing have the extension VOB?

[MrJohnny]

Hi JungleExplorer

Thank you for the back story. Useful to know the original MPEG quality was not pristine.
Ken B has explained the differences between “commercial” and home quality DVD production. So, hopefully you have a reasonable level of expectation when it comes to quality.
DVD – MPEG has really only two parameters that videographers should mess with – namely, bitrate and DC coefficients. (Assuming Field Order is not an issue, and since you have not mentioned jaggies, that appears to be a non-issue).
Why Smart Render did not work in some instances, I do not know, given the parameters were set up properly. Anyway, if the file size bloats above the original size, look at the bitrate, this must (more than likely) be in excess of the original.
Given you are trying to improve quality by adjusting color by using filters this will be offset by a re-render on output.
Please remember, that it is unlikely that quality will be improved by re-rendering to a lossy codec.
You could try exporting a file to a lossless codec, then using a conversion programme, such as, HCGUI to convert to compliant DVD-MPEG if necessary.

John

[jungleexplorer]

Hi JungleExplorer

Thank you for the back story. Useful to know the original MPEG quality was not pristine.
Ken B has explained the differences between “commercial” and home quality DVD production. So, hopefully you have a reasonable level of expectation when it comes to quality.
DVD – MPEG has really only two parameters that videographers should mess with – namely, bitrate and DC coefficients. (Assuming Field Order is not an issue, and since you have not mentioned jaggies, that appears to be a non-issue).
Why Smart Render did not work in some instances, I do not know, given the parameters were set up properly. Anyway, if the file size bloats above the original size, look at the bitrate, this must (more than likely) be in excess of the original.
Given you are trying to improve quality by adjusting color by using filters this will be offset by a re-render on output.
Please remember, that it is unlikely that quality will be improved by re-rendering to a lossy codec.
You could try exporting a file to a lossless codec, then using a conversion programme, such as, HCGUI to convert to compliant DVD-MPEG if necessary.

John

Okay, that last part you said is what I am looking for. Since I don't plan to put them back on DVDs, it is not necessary to render them to mpeg 2. I like this idea of LOSSLESS CODEC. So My question is this. Say you were in my boots and you were going to render the video for use on a video projector, what would bee the format and setting use would use? Thanks

[MrJohnny]

Hi

There are a number of lossless codes, usually in an AVI file format(wrapper). The ones I know of are: Lagarith, UT Video & HUFFYuv. You will need to find them on the Internet.

Be careful.

If you are 64 bit you will need to install the 64 bit versions for them to show in VideoStudio.

After editing/applying filters in VideoStudio, export using Custom Settings, choose the codec of your choice from the list. UT Video is the latest and gives a choice of ColorSpace.

The file sizes can be large, but with the availability of relatively inexpensive HDDs this is presumably less of a consideration than it once was.

Finally, I do not know if the video projector will be able to handle the resulting file, so may be a wasted effort. If the projector is connected to a computer with the relevant codec, should be OK??? That is why a compliant DVD-MPEG file might still be the best way.

Bet you thought there was a magic wand!

John

[jungleexplorer]

Thanks. I will look into this.

On a side note. Is there a way to automatically match a video format? Say I want to create a custom profile that matches the video format of certain camera so that SR will not have to re render all the unaltered video clips in a project. Does VS provide a way to do that? Say something simple like, Right Click the video file and select "Create custom render profile based on this video's format"." or something like that?

[lata]

Hi

"On a side note. Is there a way to automatically match a video format?" YES

Video Studio has an option that will match the project settings to our video files properties, works for most types of file, and should be ok with Mpeg2 files.

Go to F6 Preferences and make sure the Show Messages when Inserting First Video…. is ticked
Whilst in F6 Preferences – Edit Tab also set Resample Quality to Best

Start a new project, then add one of your video files, (as it has to be the first video added) you should get a message to match properties.
Viewing the details tab will show your video files properties in the right hand panel, copy and paste those details to your post, those details may help us.

With properties matching it allows Smart Render to perform at its best.

When we do Share, there is an option at the top showing Same as project settings, place a tick in the box to activate, now Same as First clip will be available from the drop down arrow.

That option will use the original clips properties to render the project, retaining quality.

One option that may be affecting your quality could be the interlacing, I suspect your files will use Frame Based, whereas the default settings for VS would be Upper Field. Anyway that’s just a thought.

Another option is to create your own profile using Settings Movie Profile Manager
Choose Format Mpeg2 then the Add option will allow you to browse for your file.
The template will replicate your video files properties, the new template being available via Share Mpeg2

[TroyTheTech]

If I may pop in on this, there is a lot of great information here - I just want to add the way that I developed on my own to do this same thing (transfer/backup DVDs and videos from Tapes without losing much Quality along the way, a.k.a. "Transcoding-but-faking-it"). You can try it if you would like, it is just another idea being thrown in the ring:

I usually take my source (master/original if possible) and when editing it lightly (cropping to widescreen, some colour correction, etc) I do at least one, and even better if you can do both, of two things:

- Double the Bitrate
- Double the Resolution
(Use an intermediate Codec for the pre-compression video (eg. WMV or MPEG-4))

If, for example, you have a DVD format 'source' (720x480 for NTSC at about 8Mbps Video Data Stream),
I would double that bitrate to about 25Mbps or higher, when rendering out my 'light edits' on it, into a pre-compression video.
That means, for this example, I would do my editing bits, then render out a 720x480 MPEG-2 video file - but with a bitrate of 25Mbps.

This way, you let the program/codec (the format of the video) try to keep as much of the detail as possible.
It will be a larger file, but it should keep much of the 'original's Quality as well as the light editing you did.

If possible, I would also double the resolution.
So for the example here,
I would double the resolution to at least 1280x960 (double vertical) or higher (1920x1080 Full HD, etc) on top of doubling the Bitrate from above (25Mbps+).
This means, for this example, I would end up with a video that is twice as 'large' in both categories, the resolution (dimensions of the screen output) and the bitrate (the amount of data it is trying to use to keep all of the Quality it can).
It will be larger of a file, but that is only temporarily, until you do your Final Render.

After this 'pre-compression' video is finished, you can choose what format you want your distribution to be in (eg. if the family member wants their VHS backup on DVD or their DVD backup on Blu-Ray, etc) and then do a Final Render out to that Format, using your larger (in size) pre-compression video (that still has a lot of the 'original's Quality in it - remember to use a totally different Codec than the source and Final will be).

Tip:
- If the source/original video data stream is already compressed quite a bit (showing Macroblocking or Gibbs Effects, both artifacts of video/image compression), I would add a Grain effect, to try hide the apparent loss of Quality.
For example, I would add a Film Grain on the video and then when my high-bitrate output is done, 'shrinking it down' to say, 720x480 again, a lot of the grain gets used to 'fill-in' the areas where the compression lost a lot of detail. This, to the human eye, looks like apparent detail, in the final product.
Imagine a video of a beach, which has a lot of fine detail of the sand and rocks, etc. Compressing it into a video normally removes a lot of that fine detail. Adding a Film Grain effect will 'fill in' that detail again and when the Final Render is done of the Backup/Archive, the added Grain will give a 'sand and stones' effect to the areas where the detail was lost (well, faking it anyway).

I have done a lot of nice Backups and Archives this way.

If anyone would like, send me a short Clip and I will perform these steps and show the results you can get with this method

I haven't had to do this for family members for a while, but I did this in the 2000's and it turned out great, in the end. I hope it works well for you, too (and anyone else interested in trying this). Good luck and have fun with it!

[Candive]

Hi TroyTheTech,
Sorry for the late response - I was searching for info on lossless codecs on the forum - My question is why wouldn't you use a lossless codec as suggested by John rather than WMV or Mpeg-4 for your 'pre-compression' video? Wouldn't using the lossless codec guarantee your pre-compression is...well...Lossless?