Working with digital files of super-8 film

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Davidk
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Working with digital files of super-8 film

Post by Davidk »

The background
One of my movie students has an archive of old family movie film, taken about 35-40 years ago, that he's had converted to digital files and is now generating X9 projects to make movies of them for family distribution. He says, on the initial creation, that the 40-year afterview has most of them fascinated.

But there are few issues that have arisen, and this post covers 2 of them which I'd appreciate some answers to from the more experienced users. I've taken some screen shots to illustrate them.

1st issue - black border around image

The converted files show a square image, which seems reasonable as the film exposure was basically square, back then. But the conversion has delivered a black border all around that image which is part of the file, and I've not found a way to remove the border. This is a snapshot of one clip in the project file illustrating this. The clip properties panel is relevant to issue 2.
Bowder stone 1.jpg
Here, I've shown the clip against a colour background to illustrate the extent of the black border surrounding the image.

Is there a way to eliminate the black border without impacting the image?

2nd issue - NTSC format in render panel]
I stumbled on this as part of a discussion of the options available to render the project file: as project properties of as MPEG-2 (which are essentially the same - I thought). As part of the render panel, the output format is indicated as NTSC, per this screen shot
Bowder stone 3.jpg
This was a surprise because the project properties are set for PAL, as shown here
Bowder stone 2.jpg
It seems clear that the NTSC format is the share panel is driven by the clip properties, specifically the 29.97 fps feature of the mp4 conversion result (see the properties panel if the image in issue #1 above). All the converted clips are the same. For such a low resolution result (film to digital could come anywhere near the HD capabilities of MP4) the basis of choosing a) an mp4 file and b) an NTSC frame rate when the conversion was done in Australia (a PAL country) is unclear. But that's what we've got. Regardless of the project propetrtis in this MPEG-2 render selection.

If one wants - for some reason - to render in that MPEG-2 format, is there a way to force the format to PAL? Other than ticking the project properties box?
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Re: Working with digital files of super-8 film

Post by BrianCee »

Old film was almost invariably in the original 4:3 format - which is closer than 16:9 to square - but whoever did the conversion from film to digital may have used some form of aspect changing equipment

As regards Question 1 - just use the cropping filter in the FX panel to trim the black border off - remember to untick the '"Fill Color" option in the customise filter window - so that the crop fills the screen - and you may need to use the fit to screen option when back in the timeline

not following your question 2 - the images you posted are of very poor quality and it is almost impossible to read the figures - but as near as I can make out it says "720 x 576 25fps" surely those are PAL figures - in any case doesn't "same as project settings" give the correct values

I don't know about TV in Australia but here in the UK we are seeing more and more odd aspect ratio videos as the TV companies use material sent to them filmed on different mobile phones etc. - this is pt o our TV screens in different ways - one option often used is this - - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJf4hpKctj0

another way is to put a still 16:9 image as the background like so : -
4_3 wedding.PNG
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Re: Working with digital files of super-8 film

Post by asik1 »

David, the key point is to understand the true spec of the original video file.
give us complete media info of it and a sample frame of it.
8mm was shot at 18fps.
your screenshots are useless.
- the border can be just poor conversion, was it via framescan or by shooting it off the wall?
Last edited by asik1 on Wed Oct 26, 2016 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Working with digital files of super-8 film

Post by John-T-Smith »

Adding to what asik1 said, Free programs to get file information for PC/Mac http://mediaarea.net/en/MediaInfo/Download POST INFORMATION IN PROGRAM'S TREE VIEW

Once you know exactly what you have, you should be able to edit accordingly
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Re: Working with digital files of super-8 film

Post by Davidk »

Several responses, as follows:
1. the conversion from film to digital file was done commercially by a camera company which advertised that service. I don't know, and neither does the owner, what the original film frame rate was or what equipment was involved in the conversion. But in a PAL country converting it to any format at an NTSC frame rate seems odd/ridiculous/crazy (choose appropriate).

2. The reason an NTSC format attracted my attention was the DVD-NTSC statement in the shared panel, here
Bowder stone 4 shared.jpg
NTSC statement circled in the image.

But agreed the stated frame rate is 25fps (a line or 2 above) which I missed, so just what does that DVD-NTSC statement mean?

3. Brian's advice re cropping filter was right on the money. Apart from the untick B mentioned, it needed a bit of fiddling with the percentages to get the cropping frame to match the image outline, at 74% each, and then paste that detail to every keyframe in the filter. But the result is shown in the following screenshot, and I've left the blue background colour in to illustrate the effect
Bowder stone 4.jpg
As to useless screenshots - part of that is controlled by the limits on the pic numbers per post, and their size, then resized to 950xwhatever pixels. Hopefully these pics are better done.

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Re: Working with digital files of super-8 film

Post by asik1 »

David , why you stretch the 4:3 to 16:9 ? people were thinner in those days.
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Re: Working with digital files of super-8 film

Post by Davidk »

The no letterbox aspect ratio option permits a "widescreen" image without distortion of the subjects. 4:3 was once the standard, but now especially with widescreen displays almost everywhere, displaying an image in 4:3 even if that was the original is pretty old school, with lots of back on the sides.
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Re: Working with digital files of super-8 film

Post by BrianCee »

Can't help with the NTSC-DVD bit at all - I just do not see that on my PC anywhere - all my standard mpeg-2 profiles show DVD-PAL when encoding
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Re: Working with digital files of super-8 film

Post by asik1 »

Davidk wrote:The no letterbox aspect ratio option permits a "widescreen" image without distortion of the subjects. 4:3 was once the standard, but now especially with widescreen displays almost everywhere, displaying an image in 4:3 even if that was the original is pretty old school, with lots of back on the sides.
But this crops top and bottom and zooms too much and blur the image.
You better fit to height with a background.
Clipboa.jpg
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Re: Working with digital files of super-8 film

Post by Ken Berry »

BrianCee wrote:Can't help with the NTSC-DVD bit at all - I just do not see that on my PC anywhere - all my standard mpeg-2 profiles show DVD-PAL when encoding
Curiously enough, I have just checked and have exactly the same thing as David! I have never noticed before, possibly because these days I rarely make mpeg-2 videos except in Blu-Ray format, and then they are mostly using AVCHD mpeg-4.

Even more curiously, when I go to Share and select MPEG-2 as the output, I get 4 "MyDVD" options at the bottom of the list, and all of them say PAL. But all the others show NTSC while at the same time having PAL frame rates of 25 fps, 25P or 50i (no 50p), and the standard def ones also show the correct 720 x 576 frame size...
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Re: Working with digital files of super-8 film

Post by asik1 »

Well all I can show is my drop list after placing a DV pal avi on track1. No NTSC in sight.
dvd.jpg
** Strangely though, loading DV NTSC avi and set the project to it, kept the pal DVD settings.
*** same goes in X7.
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Re: Working with digital files of super-8 film

Post by Ken Berry »

asik -- when you select one of those mpeg-2 options (but not the MyDVD ones) and bring up the details as in the photo from DavidK, does it actually say PAL or NTSC? In David's and my case, it is not the settings that are wrong, just what label is applied in those settings.
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Re: Working with digital files of super-8 film

Post by asik1 »

Ken Berry wrote:asik -- when you select one of those mpeg-2 options (but not the MyDVD ones) and bring up the details as in the photo from DavidK, does it actually say PAL or NTSC? In David's and my case, it is not the settings that are wrong, just what label is applied in those settings.
Ken, even when NTSC clip and project set I have only PAL dvd's profiles, and when selected they indeed pal.
Only when I set VS to NTSC in F6 I have it's profiles.
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Re: Working with digital files of super-8 film

Post by Ken Berry »

asik -- I am not talking about Profiles. Both David and I clearly have PAL profiles too. If you look at that photo David posted above in his para 2.: http://forum.corel.com/EN/viewtopic.php ... 34#p334234 , you will see that the Profiles are clearly PAL (720 x 576, 25p or 50i etc) but embedded in the Profile -- and circled in red by David -- are the letters NTSC. So while we have our VS set to PAL and are getting PAL profiles, a coding error has inserted the letters NTSC and not PAL.
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Re: Working with digital files of super-8 film

Post by asik1 »

Ken Berry wrote:asik -- I am not talking about Profiles. Both David and I clearly have PAL profiles too. If you look at that photo David posted above in his para 2.: http://forum.corel.com/EN/viewtopic.php ... 34#p334234 , you will see that the Profiles are clearly PAL (720 x 576, 25p or 50i etc) but embedded in the Profile -- and circled in red by David -- are the letters NTSC. So while we have our VS set to PAL and are getting PAL profiles, a coding error has inserted the letters NTSC and not PAL.
Well Ken, not on my system. "NTSC" shows only when relevant.
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