Hi all,
Just started using movie factory 4 after previously used videoredo and pinnalce. I only really use the stuff to edit commercials etc from tv programs before i burn them to dvd.
Anyway, I had a load of clips in the bottom bit of the screen, I had used the multi clip section on some and just the normal edit window on a few others that just need the ends trimming. It all fitted onto a dvd until I joind the clips together. Now it is to big...
How did that happen, what suddenly made the footage bigger than 4gig??
why is the movie longer when I join clips
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heinz-oz
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dapex
the file properties are the same, the footage is dvd compliant, if i join the clips together it is bigger than a dvd, if I then seperate them again, it is smaller than a dvd. it has to have somethign to do with the physical joining or the fact that when they are joined it adds back in the edited stuff
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dapex
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maddrummer3301
- Posts: 2507
- Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:24 pm
- Location: US
If it helps, once you JOIN any clips you are telling the program to create
one mpeg2 file on the dvd. That requires re-rendering all the material.
The video's will be converted to whatever the "Project Settings" are set
for under the GEAR icon. You can change the "Project Settings", create
a new template and/or apply that custom template.
If you can get away without joining any clips your better off.
Depends what you've done to the clips, trimming them down shouldn't
be a problem but adding enhancements to a video and then joining that
video with other material may/may not generate a program error.
Before creating a complete project try rendering the joined clips out
to a separate mpeg2 file. That's what the "Export" icon is for on the
left of the screen (3rd down on left). If that works then start a new
project and import the video that you exported. That's the samething
that MF4 does in the output stage anyway but seems to be a more
reliable method.
Hope this helps,
MD
one mpeg2 file on the dvd. That requires re-rendering all the material.
The video's will be converted to whatever the "Project Settings" are set
for under the GEAR icon. You can change the "Project Settings", create
a new template and/or apply that custom template.
If you can get away without joining any clips your better off.
Depends what you've done to the clips, trimming them down shouldn't
be a problem but adding enhancements to a video and then joining that
video with other material may/may not generate a program error.
Before creating a complete project try rendering the joined clips out
to a separate mpeg2 file. That's what the "Export" icon is for on the
left of the screen (3rd down on left). If that works then start a new
project and import the video that you exported. That's the samething
that MF4 does in the output stage anyway but seems to be a more
reliable method.
Hope this helps,
MD
To add to this thread, I have inputted a 1.4GB DVD from a camcorder - resulting in ~80 clips, spec PAL VBR 9100, giving 30 mins and 1.4GB on the timeline. Doing nothing but "joining" them into two clips the timeline grows to 2.6GB - but still 30 mins - no matter what project template I use!
Where did the extra 1.2GB come from?
paulus
Where did the extra 1.2GB come from?
paulus
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maddrummer3301
- Posts: 2507
- Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:24 pm
- Location: US
Depends on what version of MF your using.
This is the way MF works.
Whatever the "Project Settings" are the Project's Overall DVD settings. Any material that needs to be converted to be DVD compliant will be converted to whatever the project settings are.
You can toggle that setting by Unchecking the option "Do Not Convert Compliant MPEG files" located under the GEAR icon.
Normally you want that checked ON.
Example: Importing a video that is dvd compliant will not be re-rendered.
The project will be that same size as the imported material and the added menuing system (including any audio background tracks). Again, any audio background tracks added to the menus will be converted to the 'Project Settings".
If you import dvd material that the video is compliant and the audio IS NOT compliant then the audio will be changed to the "Project Properties".
(Read on, the project settings should equal the source materials properties, especially the video_bit_rate).
As soon as you do anything to the video such as trim, or JOIN (your case), and enhancements, text over the video then the video(s) must be re-rendered. They will be re-rendered to the "Project Settings".
If the "Project Settings" have a video bit rate of 8000kbs and lpcm audio and you import 2 files that are 4000kbs video with dolby audio and JOIN them they will be converted to the project properties which in this case is TWICE as large (double the bit-rate along with pcm audio).
The best way to work with Mpeg2 files is always know the settings of the mpeg2 files your working with and make the "Project Properites' match those settings as exact as you can. This isn't just MovieFactory, it's any video editing software.
When the "Project Properties" match the source videos and you JOIN 2 videos MovieFactory will "Smart-Render" the 2 videos together. This is very fast. If they weren't smart-rendered then the process would take a few HOURS to complete versus minutes.
If your using a version of MF that doesn't support Dolby then any files that must be re-rendered such as joining then the audio will be converted to the "Project Properties". Importing 5.1 Dolby is a problem. As long as you don't edit the videos and just import, create chapters, burn it will work. But MF doesn't convert 5.1 Dolby if the files are editing which then would need to be re-rendered.
When working with MovieFactory (or any video editor/dvd creation software) one needs to learn how mpeg files work. You cannot simply join mpeg files together because they are highly compressed and complex videos. There are programs out there that do but the resulting mpeg2 file is corrupt and wrong. Playing back or seeking on a dvd player will eventually create an error. So if another program Joins Mpegs using the wrong method and one imports them into MF they could have a problem playing on a dvd player which usually generates a "C13" error or "Cannot Play This Disk" error.
Hope this helps,
MD
.
This is the way MF works.
Whatever the "Project Settings" are the Project's Overall DVD settings. Any material that needs to be converted to be DVD compliant will be converted to whatever the project settings are.
You can toggle that setting by Unchecking the option "Do Not Convert Compliant MPEG files" located under the GEAR icon.
Normally you want that checked ON.
Example: Importing a video that is dvd compliant will not be re-rendered.
The project will be that same size as the imported material and the added menuing system (including any audio background tracks). Again, any audio background tracks added to the menus will be converted to the 'Project Settings".
If you import dvd material that the video is compliant and the audio IS NOT compliant then the audio will be changed to the "Project Properties".
(Read on, the project settings should equal the source materials properties, especially the video_bit_rate).
As soon as you do anything to the video such as trim, or JOIN (your case), and enhancements, text over the video then the video(s) must be re-rendered. They will be re-rendered to the "Project Settings".
If the "Project Settings" have a video bit rate of 8000kbs and lpcm audio and you import 2 files that are 4000kbs video with dolby audio and JOIN them they will be converted to the project properties which in this case is TWICE as large (double the bit-rate along with pcm audio).
The best way to work with Mpeg2 files is always know the settings of the mpeg2 files your working with and make the "Project Properites' match those settings as exact as you can. This isn't just MovieFactory, it's any video editing software.
When the "Project Properties" match the source videos and you JOIN 2 videos MovieFactory will "Smart-Render" the 2 videos together. This is very fast. If they weren't smart-rendered then the process would take a few HOURS to complete versus minutes.
If your using a version of MF that doesn't support Dolby then any files that must be re-rendered such as joining then the audio will be converted to the "Project Properties". Importing 5.1 Dolby is a problem. As long as you don't edit the videos and just import, create chapters, burn it will work. But MF doesn't convert 5.1 Dolby if the files are editing which then would need to be re-rendered.
When working with MovieFactory (or any video editor/dvd creation software) one needs to learn how mpeg files work. You cannot simply join mpeg files together because they are highly compressed and complex videos. There are programs out there that do but the resulting mpeg2 file is corrupt and wrong. Playing back or seeking on a dvd player will eventually create an error. So if another program Joins Mpegs using the wrong method and one imports them into MF they could have a problem playing on a dvd player which usually generates a "C13" error or "Cannot Play This Disk" error.
Hope this helps,
MD
.
@maddrummer
Thanks for the detailed explanation - and excuse my slowness, but some things I still don't comprehend (I am using DVDMF3 Disc Creator):
1. The imported video is higher quality than any project setting (VBR max 9100) so any necessary rendering should REDUCE its size??
2. Since the camcorder puts ~30mins on a 1.4GB DVD, I am looking to put 3 disks (at the same quality) onto a regular DVD. Should be OK, although DVDVMF3 saya that only 60mins are possible at High Quality? If I use external progs to join clips, 3-onto-1 is certainly possible with DVDMF3, but I am trying to do it within DVDMF3
3. I have Do not convert compliant video checked - but still the enormous growth
4. What is "Smart rendering"? and how do I achieve it?
Thanks for your interest
paulus
Thanks for the detailed explanation - and excuse my slowness, but some things I still don't comprehend (I am using DVDMF3 Disc Creator):
1. The imported video is higher quality than any project setting (VBR max 9100) so any necessary rendering should REDUCE its size??
2. Since the camcorder puts ~30mins on a 1.4GB DVD, I am looking to put 3 disks (at the same quality) onto a regular DVD. Should be OK, although DVDVMF3 saya that only 60mins are possible at High Quality? If I use external progs to join clips, 3-onto-1 is certainly possible with DVDMF3, but I am trying to do it within DVDMF3
3. I have Do not convert compliant video checked - but still the enormous growth
4. What is "Smart rendering"? and how do I achieve it?
Thanks for your interest
paulus
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maddrummer3301
- Posts: 2507
- Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:24 pm
- Location: US
P, Do you have have the latest MF3 updates installed (Not the burning engine updates, I'm referencing the Program Updates).
You need them installed to join properly.
How are you getting the videos into MF3?
Are you directly taking them from the dvd using the Import dvd-r/-vr Icon?
There are a few tricks (along with some "If"s" to learn working with this video stuff, is there an "X" in the upper right hand corner of the video?
If so, then note their location(s) on the harddisk and delete them from the timeline & re-import them back into MF. That will remove the "X" showing they are compliant files. I always delete them and re-import them from the harddisk, something to do with importing dvd's and they are read correctly after re-importing them.
After importing/re-importing the 3 clips on the timeline write down their "Properties". Right-Click on one of the videos on the timeline and select "Properties". Wirte them down. Then hit the "GEAR" icon -> "Change Mpeg Settings" and change the settings to MATCH the imported videos settings. "Save" the project.
Once you Join the clips they must be re-rendered but IF the "Project Properties" MATCH the source videos they will be smart-rendered with no loss of quality. The Project Properties must match the source videos or they will be re-rendered (re-sampled to the new bit-rate).
When you JOIN the clips they are calculated using the "Project Properties" when you have joined them because they must be rewritten to a new file.
If you notice the "Max_Bit_Rate" of the video that isn't the actual true bit-rate. The true bit-rate of the file must be analyzed first by playing the complete video OR doing some math using the file size versus the length of the video & audio. So, 9100 is the max_bit_rate but the actual may be 6000. My sony recorder at Standard Recording averages about 4500kbs for 2 hours of video. They are marked as 9800kbs Max_Bit_Rate by the recorder. 9800kbs would be only an hour of video. That's the nature of working with Mpeg2 files, they are complicated.
If you do it correctly the joined files will come out correctly joined.
If the project properties equal the source videos and the source videos are dvd compliant the files will be joined and file sizes added together.
When you create the dvd try burning an ISO file or dvd folders and see what the total size is.
MD
You need them installed to join properly.
How are you getting the videos into MF3?
Are you directly taking them from the dvd using the Import dvd-r/-vr Icon?
There are a few tricks (along with some "If"s" to learn working with this video stuff, is there an "X" in the upper right hand corner of the video?
If so, then note their location(s) on the harddisk and delete them from the timeline & re-import them back into MF. That will remove the "X" showing they are compliant files. I always delete them and re-import them from the harddisk, something to do with importing dvd's and they are read correctly after re-importing them.
After importing/re-importing the 3 clips on the timeline write down their "Properties". Right-Click on one of the videos on the timeline and select "Properties". Wirte them down. Then hit the "GEAR" icon -> "Change Mpeg Settings" and change the settings to MATCH the imported videos settings. "Save" the project.
Once you Join the clips they must be re-rendered but IF the "Project Properties" MATCH the source videos they will be smart-rendered with no loss of quality. The Project Properties must match the source videos or they will be re-rendered (re-sampled to the new bit-rate).
When you JOIN the clips they are calculated using the "Project Properties" when you have joined them because they must be rewritten to a new file.
If you notice the "Max_Bit_Rate" of the video that isn't the actual true bit-rate. The true bit-rate of the file must be analyzed first by playing the complete video OR doing some math using the file size versus the length of the video & audio. So, 9100 is the max_bit_rate but the actual may be 6000. My sony recorder at Standard Recording averages about 4500kbs for 2 hours of video. They are marked as 9800kbs Max_Bit_Rate by the recorder. 9800kbs would be only an hour of video. That's the nature of working with Mpeg2 files, they are complicated.
If you do it correctly the joined files will come out correctly joined.
If the project properties equal the source videos and the source videos are dvd compliant the files will be joined and file sizes added together.
When you create the dvd try burning an ISO file or dvd folders and see what the total size is.
MD
@maddrummer
Thanks for the interest & help - some further info:
I have used MF3 successfully with my Sony DV camcorder using capture via firewire -so I know a little. My current project is with my father in law's new camcorder (Sony) which writes directly onto small DVDs. I am importing via the Disk button - and it is collecting compliant mpegs.
My MF3 has all updates (that I know of) installed - files dm3_patch_dl_e.exe and dm3_patch2_dl_e.exe.
I cannot set the project template to EXACTLY the clip settings, since the VBR has a maximum of 9100 (no average given) and MF3 goes no higher than 8xxx.
However, trying to progress, I have imported the clips (now from files) - 18 in total, into a totally new project. I have selected them all and clicked on Join. Then unchecked Menu, then Next, then Next to avoid the trial play screen. I have then selected output to folders and clicked Output. This, I think, is exactly the sequence you wish me to make?
Then disaster! Within 25 secs I progress to "Converting video editing title" 6% - then nothing other than the time counting up. I have left it for 25 mins with no change, and Cancel doesn't work - needs Task Manager to close it. I have the same result with different project settings (High quality, medium quality, with and without Dolby sound),
Any ideas? I really would like to crack this!
paulus
ps I am on 98SE with an AMD processor
Thanks for the interest & help - some further info:
I have used MF3 successfully with my Sony DV camcorder using capture via firewire -so I know a little. My current project is with my father in law's new camcorder (Sony) which writes directly onto small DVDs. I am importing via the Disk button - and it is collecting compliant mpegs.
My MF3 has all updates (that I know of) installed - files dm3_patch_dl_e.exe and dm3_patch2_dl_e.exe.
I cannot set the project template to EXACTLY the clip settings, since the VBR has a maximum of 9100 (no average given) and MF3 goes no higher than 8xxx.
However, trying to progress, I have imported the clips (now from files) - 18 in total, into a totally new project. I have selected them all and clicked on Join. Then unchecked Menu, then Next, then Next to avoid the trial play screen. I have then selected output to folders and clicked Output. This, I think, is exactly the sequence you wish me to make?
Then disaster! Within 25 secs I progress to "Converting video editing title" 6% - then nothing other than the time counting up. I have left it for 25 mins with no change, and Cancel doesn't work - needs Task Manager to close it. I have the same result with different project settings (High quality, medium quality, with and without Dolby sound),
Any ideas? I really would like to crack this!
paulus
ps I am on 98SE with an AMD processor
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maddrummer3301
- Posts: 2507
- Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:24 pm
- Location: US
Hi,
>>I cannot set the project template to EXACTLY the clip settings, since the
>>VBR has a maximum of 9100 (no average given) and MF3 goes no higher
>>than 8xxx.
That's because the AUDIO for the "Project Properties" is probably set to Lpcm 48khz stereo audio which also accounts why the file sizes are doubling.
I'm taking for granted you have MF3 Disc Creator with Dolby Audio? You haven't mentioned anything not supporting 2/0 dolby. Most of those recorders record dolby although you can set them to record lpcm audio on the HQ setting (some).
The files you are importing should be 9800vbr no? Maybe Sony is using a different encoder with that model.
If you don't change the audio to either Mpeg or Dolby then you can't set the video_bit_rate higher. First change the audio to Dobly if that's what the source videos are, then change the video-bit-rate to equal the source. Once you can the audio from lpcm to dolby or mpeg then you can go higher with the video_bit_rate. MF will tell you if you set it to high. I think it's 9880 but set it equal to the source videos.
My sony's at HQ are 9800 and dolby 2/0 at 256kbs, 720x480. Question, if sony IS using 9100 are these 5.1Dolby audio tracks, hope not. MF will pass them through, don't think MF will Join them.
Go in and change the Mpeg settings under "Project Settings" OR create a template creating a project with the same properties as the source material. Try that, I would also make sure there aren't any "X's" in the videos and try to join 2 or 3 at first instead of so many. 2 or 3 smart-rendered should go quickly without motion menus. Or de-select "Create Menu" to see if the joining will work. If there are "X's" delete them from the timeline and import
them separately.
See if that works, you may also have a problem trying to join files that were recorded at different bit-rates such as HQ and SD mixed. Wouldn't do that.
Hope this helps,
MD
Tip: When using a handycam mini-dvd use "Pause" instead of stopping and starting during recordings. This creates less clips on the dvd which is easier to manage.
>>I cannot set the project template to EXACTLY the clip settings, since the
>>VBR has a maximum of 9100 (no average given) and MF3 goes no higher
>>than 8xxx.
That's because the AUDIO for the "Project Properties" is probably set to Lpcm 48khz stereo audio which also accounts why the file sizes are doubling.
I'm taking for granted you have MF3 Disc Creator with Dolby Audio? You haven't mentioned anything not supporting 2/0 dolby. Most of those recorders record dolby although you can set them to record lpcm audio on the HQ setting (some).
The files you are importing should be 9800vbr no? Maybe Sony is using a different encoder with that model.
If you don't change the audio to either Mpeg or Dolby then you can't set the video_bit_rate higher. First change the audio to Dobly if that's what the source videos are, then change the video-bit-rate to equal the source. Once you can the audio from lpcm to dolby or mpeg then you can go higher with the video_bit_rate. MF will tell you if you set it to high. I think it's 9880 but set it equal to the source videos.
My sony's at HQ are 9800 and dolby 2/0 at 256kbs, 720x480. Question, if sony IS using 9100 are these 5.1Dolby audio tracks, hope not. MF will pass them through, don't think MF will Join them.
Go in and change the Mpeg settings under "Project Settings" OR create a template creating a project with the same properties as the source material. Try that, I would also make sure there aren't any "X's" in the videos and try to join 2 or 3 at first instead of so many. 2 or 3 smart-rendered should go quickly without motion menus. Or de-select "Create Menu" to see if the joining will work. If there are "X's" delete them from the timeline and import
them separately.
See if that works, you may also have a problem trying to join files that were recorded at different bit-rates such as HQ and SD mixed. Wouldn't do that.
Hope this helps,
MD
Tip: When using a handycam mini-dvd use "Pause" instead of stopping and starting during recordings. This creates less clips on the dvd which is easier to manage.
maddrummer:
1. You're correct - changing the audio setting allowed me to enter a VBR of 9100.
2. I guess the 9100 comes from the fact that we are PAL (you're NTSC, I presume)
3. I have created a project setting now exactly as per the clip properties.
4. There are no X's in any of the clips.
5. I have selected just three clips (~1min 30 secs)
6. The timeline still doubles the file size when I do a Join
7. Outputing to folders still bombs out with only the clock ticking (up to 45 mins) and needs Task manager to close it down!!
I guess that something simple is missing (like MF3 doesn't support Join for PAL files!!) - but I am at a loss now!
paulus.
1. You're correct - changing the audio setting allowed me to enter a VBR of 9100.
2. I guess the 9100 comes from the fact that we are PAL (you're NTSC, I presume)
3. I have created a project setting now exactly as per the clip properties.
4. There are no X's in any of the clips.
5. I have selected just three clips (~1min 30 secs)
6. The timeline still doubles the file size when I do a Join
7. Outputing to folders still bombs out with only the clock ticking (up to 45 mins) and needs Task manager to close it down!!
I guess that something simple is missing (like MF3 doesn't support Join for PAL files!!) - but I am at a loss now!
paulus.
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maddrummer3301
- Posts: 2507
- Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:24 pm
- Location: US
When that happens it's usually the audio format.
Maybe they are to short.
3 small files should take about 10minutes or less to encode with no motion menu's.
The error appears to me to be in the joining and not creating the dvd structure.
The new Sony handycam's are marking the video's as 9100kbs.
My Sony desktop encodes the videos as 9800kbs.
Are these 5.1 Dolby Audio?
If so MF3/4 doesn't support 5.1 dolby. You would have to use the Sony software for that.
Not sure now why your getting this error.
The file size is doubling because the TRUE bit-rate of the videos IS NOT
9100. That is the Max_Bit_Rate when sony encoded them.
If the files were smart-rendered and joined you would see the correct calculated file size.
MF can't tell the average bit rate without analyzing the file first
and doesn't have a feature to do that.
If the videos were recorded in MF and not another program the calculated file sizes would be correct.
MD
Maybe they are to short.
3 small files should take about 10minutes or less to encode with no motion menu's.
The error appears to me to be in the joining and not creating the dvd structure.
The new Sony handycam's are marking the video's as 9100kbs.
My Sony desktop encodes the videos as 9800kbs.
Are these 5.1 Dolby Audio?
If so MF3/4 doesn't support 5.1 dolby. You would have to use the Sony software for that.
Not sure now why your getting this error.
The file size is doubling because the TRUE bit-rate of the videos IS NOT
9100. That is the Max_Bit_Rate when sony encoded them.
If the files were smart-rendered and joined you would see the correct calculated file size.
MF can't tell the average bit rate without analyzing the file first
and doesn't have a feature to do that.
If the videos were recorded in MF and not another program the calculated file sizes would be correct.
MD