PSP color management

[brucet]

Still wasting time!

A coupe of observations.
I now have all three of my computers holding their colours. The dreaded colour switch seems to have been switched off. Maybe!!!!
How?
No idea. But I opened PSPx7 on all three computers at the same time. All running the very last SP of PSPx7.

Computer 1 is an old laptop running Win 7 Home Premium. Color management is turned OFF. Image, graphic or Text generated by sRGB color space profile.icm. This computer is an internet only computer so I haven't spent a lot of time on screen set up. PSPx7 is only used now and again for fixing images for the internet. It's a backup machine!
Computer 2 is a newer laptop. Running Win 8.1. Color Management is turned OFF. Image, Graphic or Text generated by sRGB color space profile.icm. This is my main work computer. It's fast and goes with me around the world. Even though I have a calibrated profile for this computer under Color Working Space I have sRGB Color Space Profile selected.
Computer 3 is an old desktop. Win 7 Home premium. Color Management is OFF. Image, Graphic or Text generated by sRGB color space profile.icm. Under Color Working Space I have sRGB Color Space Profile selected.

So you can see I've gone back to basics. Doing this has eliminated the color switch when PSP starts up. Computer 2 was my main concern. I needed the colors to by correct when editing. Computer 3 is only used for printing via QImage. PSPx7 is only used to do minor tweaking during printing sessions. QImage has an excellent soft proof. There I check for any color issues.
Now I know the calibration of screens is important to many folks. To me as well. But I have set my brightness, contrast etc on each machine the best I can. I only do critical color editing at the same time of day to eliminate any outside lighting issues. So I can get away with sRGB. What I print now is very very close to what I see in QImage and PSPx7 on computer 3. Computer 2 is close but being a laptop not always close enough. So finishing off on the desk top on my large screen does the trick.

Conclusion - I have no idea what I did. But going back to basics with a clean set of settings has done the trick for me. I would suggest anyone having issues should do the same. Then one step at a time make changes. Checking to see if and when the color change comes back.

On a side note. During this time wasting I somehow managed to kill the startup splash screen on the desktop. Now PSPx7 starts up in about 2 seconds without the splash screen appearing.

regards

[GMack]

Bruce, interesting you are using Qimage too.

I made a print today and noticed when Qimage opened its "Confirm" box popped up saying the following:

*******************************
The monitor profile in your Windows display properties is different from the monitor profile identified by Qimage.

Windows: C:\\....\sRGB Color Space Profile.icm
Qimage: C:\\....\i1 Display Pro D75

Would you like Qimage to use your Windows monitor profile?

If you are unsure, answering Yes is recommended for consistent color because the other color managed applications will use the Windows monitor profile.

*******************************

I never changed it to sRGB after I played around in PSP X8 so that must be what is going on. It starts with my profile, but somehow later it goes to sRGB on its own? So maybe PSP X8 is automatically changing the color space to sRGB by itself?

This is even though it reports in "Color Preferences" where I show it as "i1 Display Pro D65" but it isn't going there. It goes to sRGB all by itself and maybe why the screen goes that way too, even though I have it commanded to use my custom profile. Might explain why if I open the PSP X8 Monitor Color Calibration tool it becomes a D65/D75 screen (Picks up my default) but then goes back to yellow/orange when I close it.

Wierd.
______________________

Mark or Bruce, I'm curious as to what you see on the Color Management pane of PSP X8. Mine is now:

Image, graphic, or test generated by: i1 Display Pro D65.icm

Is your "Enable Color Management" box checked or clear?

I checked the Enable Color Management box.
I left the Basic color management circle (box) cleared, but set the following.
Selected Proofing: See colors on your monitor and/or printer as they would appear on another device.

Monitor Profile: (1. Generic PnP Monitor)
i1 Display Pro D65.icm
Printer Profile (Epson Stylus Pro 3880) |-- Rendering Intent: Match
Epson Stylus Pro 3880_3885_3890 Ph (Can't read rest as box is clipped for text here!)

Emulated device profile:
Epson Stylus Pro 3880_3885_3890 Whi (Text again clipped to short to tell what it is!) |-- Rendering Intent: Match


Wish I could read the rest of the lines in those drop down boxes to see what they say. Might be something in there important if they would expand out to show more text.

Mack

[brucet]

Mack I'm using PSPx7. Not x8. But having said that I see no report of there being a difference re color management.

Re QIamge confirm box. I haven't tracked what happens there but every now and again I get the same message. I simply click yes and continue.

In my Color Management pane I have 'Image, graphic or text generated by sRGB Color Space Profile.icm'

Enable Color Management is clear/unchecked.

The Basic color management ........... circle/radio button is checked. ie on. But that shouldn't come into play because 'Enable Color Management' is off.

While every thing on my 3 computers is set to sRGB I haven't had any issues. As I said, I would try resetting every thing back to sRGB and then slowly make changes to suit until the issue reappears.

Something within PSP is making changes and resets back to sRGB. I think! Many years back I was a systems analyst. I learned early on not to make changes unless I had to. Then every change was made in such away as to allow backward steps. Sometimes I think we get a bit too clever. Trying to achieve that last 1 or 2% can cause trouble worth more than the 1 or 2% gained. PSP is not a high end color manager. It's just a very good editor. Albeit with flaws. What I have done is accepted those flaws and found work arounds. Hence the use of plugins such as Topaz DeNoise v PSP noise removal. And QImage to print and soft proof at the very end.

Having said that I'm not sure that Corel is interested in the small number of users trying to seek perfection. Mediocre is where Corel sits. Until their attitude changes, and we have to pay for that change, I'm always looking for more tools to put in my tool box. I'm now using Photoline as my main editor and flipping to PSP when required.
We either accept PSPs flaws or go crazy trying to fix them.

regards

[MarkZ]

I never changed it to sRGB after I played around in PSP X8 so that must be what is going on. It starts with my profile, but somehow later it goes to sRGB on its own? So maybe PSP X8 is automatically changing the color space to sRGB by itself?
. . . .
Wierd.

It's hard to understand just what is going on. I think once a profile is loaded it stays there until a new one is loaded. So the monitor would use a profile even though it may have been loaded inadvertently. You would have to retrace your steps carefully with regard to changes made in the Color Management windows - or it is just a PSP mystery.

Mark or Bruce, I'm curious as to what you see on the Color Management pane of PSP X8. Mine is now:

Image, graphic, or test generated by: i1 Display Pro D65.icm

When I posted yesterday, I had not found how to change the content of this box which in my case was sRGB Color Space Profile.icm (which is what it is now) and thought PSP controlled it. I wondered how you had manage to change it and have found that it is the profile chosen for the Color working space. PSP default is the sRGB.

I don't have a printer of sufficient quality so don't print at home. So I enable color management with basic colour management.

Another factor in all of this is how the calibration software and its profiles interacts with the display. In my case I can turn the calibration on or off but I don't know which profile is used in the off position. The default or starting point is the monitor profile but if I change the default to sRGB and then have the calibration off, is the sRBG the profile that is used? I'll have to experiment some more.

[GMack]

Seems PSP X8 is changing its CM by itself. Changing color just by opening the X8 Color Monitor Profiler tells me something differs.

Today I noticed the Color Management box has changed one Rendering Intent to "Prints" instead of "Match" above. Weird as I never print out of PSP X8 and use Qimage. Don't know if it happened on re-booting or what is going on. It still shows "i1 Display Pro D65" as my default, but it is changing the CM checkboxes by itself and that may be dependent on how Windows 10 CM is initially set up, or X-rite's calibration setup, Qimage, PS CS6, Eizo? I dunno.

Odd its own default would be sRGB since most photo printers can do better than that as well as external monitors. I believe Lightroom uses the broadest ProColor.icm gamut and dumbs or narrows down to others like AdobeRGB.icm or sRGB.icm, but PSP X8 goes the other way?

Corel needs to do some fixin' somewhere.

Mack

[MarkZ]

Mack, some final musings on color management:

Mark or Bruce, I'm curious as to what you see on the Color Management pane of PSP X8. Mine is now:
Image, graphic, or test generated by: i1 Display Pro D65.icm

From this it appears that you are using the profile from your calibration device when creating/saving an image by setting it in Color Working space. And within that you have a choice of using or ignoring the embedded profile. I still can't get my head around the implication of the choices and why you would choose a profile and then not ignore the embedded profile - it's a bit like double negatives.

The profile generated by the calibration device is used to adjust the monitor so that colours are presented on it as they should appear. Every monitor is going to be a bit different so in theory each individual's profile will be different and may change over time (recommendation to repeat on a regular basis). If a number of individuals look at the same (standard) image they should all see the same thing if they have calibrated.

So, I speculate that it is preferable to create an image using a standard profile, sRGB in PSP's case, if it is to be sent out into the world. It seems to me that if a calibration profile is used to generate/save an image it is a bit like modify squared on your own monitor and distorted colours for other viewers. If you have a good monitor with little change in the calibration profile then the changes may not be noticeable but could be significant for other monitors.

I experimented with a couple of images, using a different profile in Color Working space and the two different buttons within it and found that in one it made a big difference in the reds, in the other not a noticeable difference from the original (with sRGB). But I'm sticking with sRGB in the Working space selection.

[GMack]

Thanks Mark.

I think the best thing for me is not use PSP X8 for any print work which is what I do and why I calibrate out of the sRGB colorspace. The external Eizo monitor is closer to the Adobe1998 RGB colorspace which sort of defeats having a better monitor for editing and printing since maybe PSP X8 wants to use sRGB maybe by default and it taking over the default colorspace either I or my calibration tools programmed it for. Dunno.

As it is with PSP X8, I'd have to switch back and forth and don't know what becomes of an image if I adopt the smaller sRGB for printing, save it to Adobe1998 RGB, print, (Opps!), back to PSP X8 for color mods and what color space change occurs there again, re-edit, save to Adobe 1998 RGB again, and print again.

If all I did was sRGB web-world stuff, it might not be an issue. The Eizo CG series comes with three factory certified calibrated icm profiles: Print. Photography, and Web. If it isn't right there something, then something is wrong downstream or on the notebook/computer feeding into it. I can have it emulate the smaller color space such as sRGB on the notebook too, but then the 8 color printer can do much better than sRGB so using that smaller space defeats the printer's capability.

Other programs seem to run okay, but when PSPS X8 does something that other software picks up on telling me "Colorspace or gamma has changed," that ain't good. So far both Color Navigator 6 as well as Qimage Ultimate will tattle on PSP X8 changing things around. If I start PSP X8 anytime, I'll likely need to re-boot since it takes over the default calibration profiles and stays planted there. "What you see isn't what you print with PSP X8."

Back to Photoshop or Lightroom I guess, until Corel figures out better color management handling methodology as Adobe seems to have already done. At least other editing software doesn't pop up "Warning windows" using Adobe's stuff, and some other editors I use as well, just PSP X8 does that - ugh!

Mack

[JoeB]

I have been following this thread with interest because I have never been able to get my head around the whole issue of Color Management! And this despite the fact that I used to have commercial offset printers do tons of work for me. In those days I simply did things like print samples on the card stock from my ink jet printer that showed the commercial printer how I wanted the images I provided to look when they printed them and I left it to them to figure out how to make whatever color adjustments were necessary at their end. Worked like a charm for years. Also, regular photos that I optimize in PSP with the settings (below) and have printed at the London Drugs lab, choosing the option that I have already optimized the images (as opposed to the option to let them make corrections) come out looking as I expect them to.

That said, I thought I might as well chime in with my settings in X7 and the results I see. First, I calibrated my monitor simply using the OSD controls and several test images that are available for eyeball calibration and generated the resultant profile. I did choose a cooler temp setting rather than the warmer one that appeared to be the default in the OSD. I do not have any Color Management software installed! In the Color Management dialogue I have Image, Graphic or Text showing as sRGB Color Space Profile.icm. Enable Color Management is unchecked. Basic Color Management is selected and everything greyed out. My generated monitor profile and my printer's color profile show in their respective boxes. Rendering Intent is presently set to Match (but a bit more on that in a moment). And Emulated Device Profile shows sRGB Color Space Profile.icm with Rendering Intent at Match.

Now about the rendering intent. With all of the settings as above, if I get an image on my monitor looking the way I want it to look, when I print it then it comes out looking as close to what can be expected of a printed image to what I see on the screen so very satisfactory. HOWEVER, every so often when I open the Color Management dialogue I will find that the Rendering Intent for the Monitor and the Printer profiles has been changed to Picturres. I haven't changed it but for some reason PSP has done so. This is not a consistent thing, and whether it happens sometimes when re-opening PSP or sometimes when working on a project I cannot say. But when it does change to Pictures then printing an image open in PSP results in heavily over saturated print output with reds being the worst - and this is with Enable Color Management unchecked. I have therefore made it a habit to always check the Color Management settings before printing and, if it has changed rendering intent to Pictures I change it back to Match before printing.

I started this post with comments on how I handled having stuff printed so it looked the way I wanted when produced by commercial offset printing companies. Now a comment on preparing images for the web. In those days I also designed and maintained websites, the majority of them for private small businesses and in particular for art galleries, posting images of art works from photos I would take of the works with my camera and optimize in PSP (although they sometimes submitted their own photos to me). I worked on those images with the same Color Management settings as set out above. The one thing I was aware of was that the vast majority of people viewing images on the web are not going to see the same colors as each other because the vast majority of people do not do any sort of monitor calibration at all on their monitors, not even calibrating using the OSD controls. In other words, there is simply no way to ensure that most people see the same thing and the odds are massively in favor of the fact that they don't. But, just like people all have different colors showing on their TV sets, people get use to what they see and think it looks fine on their own TV's or their own monitors even though they can't understand why other people think their TV or monitor colors are also fine.

[GMack]

Joe, I found some print labs like images saved as sRGB to confine the colorspace too. Not the greatest for output, but good enough for commercial work I guess.

However, if you have scenes that your camera shot in AdobeRGB or NikonRGB, etc., then it's a set backwards if your printer can handle that color space as well but you confine it to a less colorful space with sRGB in editing.

More than likely labs do it to avoid a lot of re-prints if someone's skin comes out too orange or whatever else they see verses what you see. A lot of commercial lab printers are only CMYK (4 inks) too instead of having extras like green, orange, red, LM, LC, etc. loaded that can produce better colors, hence more need for better management and sundry calibration toys

Glad to see I'm not the only one seeing the Color Management settings changing in PSP X8 by themselves as well. It's bizarre! Mine does go from Picture to Match and back again with no reasoning as well. Always a surprise in there.


Aside and a bit off topic, if you really want to see how good or not your monitor shows shadow detail try this image and see how it goes: http://www.piezography.com/PiezoPress/b ... i-need-it/

Can you see shadow detail in 1 or 2? Now we're talking if you can!

Mack

[GMack]

This is even more bizarre, perhaps even cruel.

Simple screenshot taken where I opened the same test image on the above link into both Photoshop CS6 and PSP X8. Slid them both off the notebook onto the Eizo CG-248 monitor.

In CS6 I can see down to the numeral #1 (JPG here may not show it here, but it's there.), but looking at the the PSP X8 maybe numeral #11 at best? More disturbing is the blacks in the image. Don't know why the PSP X8 black is so weak (Looks more gray than black.) than with Photoshop CS6?

Maybe why Color Navigator 6 gets upset telling me "The gamma has changed" with opening PSP X8 over CS6 (No gamma setting I could find in PSP X8 (Short of using its "Color Monitor Calibrator" tool which I never have used.). Maybe why PSP X8 is flattening out the contrast too? An SRGB bug in PSP X8 or black rendering intent fault against Adobe?

I have learned that some notebook RGB outputs are not full RGB=0-255 but some smaller RGB=16=235 for TV's out of the HDMI port (PSP X8 maybe?). Also, some Nvida cards have settings for HDMI from RGB (default) to some YbCb444 protocol that boosts vibrance too. But this is same output for both programs onto the same screen, just they are in no way alike for whatever reason.

Be nice if Corel would respond why PSP X8 operates so differently in their colorspace.

Mack

[JoeB]

GMack, the best I can see on the website or viewing in X7 and X8 is maybe 11 at best as you mentioned. I had to set X8 Color Calibration settings to the same as I have in X7 because the defaults they were set at in X8 only let me see 19. Haven't done an OSD calibration in a couple of years so likely could use a tweak or two.

In both X7 and X8 the blacks look good to me with that test image.

[GMack]

GMack, the best I can see on the website or viewing in X7 and X8 is maybe 11 at best as you mentioned. I had to set X8 Color Calibration settings to the same as I have in X7 because the defaults they were set at in X8 only let me see 19. Haven't done an OSD calibration in a couple of years so likely could use a tweak or two.

In both X7 and X8 the blacks look good to me with that test image.

Interesting huh?

I don't get why CS6 is showing me a darker black than X8 does when same image is opened side-by-side. I no longer have X7 loaded so maybe they knackered up something in X8 or SP1 for it. I dunno.

I know I can see the #1 on the Eizo with CS6 running so all is good there (And why I bought the expensive @$$ thing over the 27" Apple Thunderbolt screen that would only allow me to see maybe #11 at best too, but the Apple Thunderbolt monitor seems to be geared towards "consumerism" (i.e. Contrasty. Colorful. Sharper. But not suited for showing any shadow detail for better printing ability.). I think Eizo is capable of producing a blacker black somehow, but not sure if that's why, but it shouldn't matter side-by-side.

I don't know if it would be improved for me by rolling back to PSP X7, but maybe since some seem to have issues with X8 someplace reading on here. Maybe I can try and find my X7 download link and try that older version, re-download it, install, and see if I can and try it against CS6 and see if it changes anything on that test image. I think Corel doesn't allow for re-downloads of older versions though (Times out, unless option is purchased for re-downloading?).

Mack

[brucet]

Like all problem solving we first need to know what it is we are trying to achieve. And there resides much of the 'problem'. I print all my own work and supply clients, such as museums, prints for sale. Now I'm a control freak and need to ensure that the next run of prints are the same as the last run. I'm not really concerned if my reds are true reds or blacks are real black. I just want consistency that I can rely on. I want to know that what I see on my screen is what will print. And if I flip flop between programs that what I see remains as It had been before. While others want larger colour spaces or use calibrated screens, etc, etc. The actual colour space and calibration are not the issue for me. What does raise its head as the issue for me is the fact the PSP is changing 'stuff'. 'Stuff' that not only changes what you see in PSP but what you later see in other programs. Its changing the computer. Until you do a reboot you are stuck with what PSP deems as the 'right' colour. I have printing programs. Paper profiles. Use the same ink. I control everything. Everything that is except for PSP. (So far my solution is to set PSP back to a point where some of the colour features are useless and not worth having).

Like any good tradesman I have many tools in my tool box. PSP is just one of those tools. But if you find a tool in your tool box that is making all your other tools rusty then you are inclined to replace it. That's what is happening with PSP. What ever you want to achieve with your colour you want it to stay consistent.

So as I see it I can work with every other piece of software in my tool box without if affecting my colours. EXCEPT for PSP.

I only dream that someone at Corel with more than just a weekly pay slip is following this thread. It would be a bonus if one of those someones simply acknowledged that they are reading this. They could even say they are looking into it. Even call us a bunch of nuts! But just don't ignore us. Folks at Photoline, QImage, Topaz etc respond to their users. Maybe that's why there are so many of us looking elsewhere!

regards

[JoeB]

Well Bruce, at least I can say that I get consistency with my admittedly less than professional approach to color management and printing on my own printer as well as having photo prints done at a quick lab. That is, of course, if I regularly check the Color Management dialogue just to make sure that PSP hasn't made changes when I reopen it. If it has I just change them back. Of course I only use one computer for everything.

[GMack]

I found another RGB shadow test site here: http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/black.php RGB values in Red are that many points up the RGB ladder from RGB=0 Black in the image's border (e.g. The red #1 is RGB=1, #2 is RGB=2, etc. up to the White RGB=255.).

The PSP X8 oddity:
The "Dropper Tool" in both CS6 and PSP X8 show RGB=0 in the attached photo when placed in the upper left corner of the above image. However, looking at the images the CS6 background is a Black (and I can discern the red RGB changes within it too), but the PSP X8 is a gray and not a black at all in comparison even though its dropper and the CS6 dropper show the same RGB=0 in the image's black corner.

Don't get what is happening in PSP X8, but RGB=0 Black in PSP X8 it isn't. It's more of dark gray and maybe not a Dmax black in printing?

So if you cannot see down to the #1 in either of the two linked images above, and maybe see only the 11-17 range, it could be that PSP X8 is not allowing for a good black on your screen. I don't know why or how Photoshop does it since I put them on the same screen together. Photoshop does show a strong black and I can see the #1, but not so well in PSP X8? It's a puzzle.


Corel, you got's some splaining to do!

Mack