PSP color management

[brucet]

I'm using PSPx7. Have used PSP since way back in the Jasc days. Had every version since. But reading these forums has given me doubts about jumping to x8 and Corel's direction with PSP. So as insurance I've started using Photoline. (Great program that has a lot to offer). Now in Photoline you can link/open another program. So I have PSPx7 installed as an external link. (Along with other plug ins). So when using Photoline and I want/need to use one of PSP's tools or features it's simply a matter of clicking on the PSP option and it opens up with the image I'm working on. Once finished it's just a matter of closing the file and it returns to Photoline. (There are some limits).

Now to the point of my thread. I have Color Management turned off in PSP and in Photoline and use my calibrated monitor settings. I do this for other programs as well. Every time I swap from Photoline to PSP the colour changes. Other programs don't change. Even with Color Management turned off PSP is still doing something with the colours. I use QImage for printing. With PSP I have to make further adjustments in QImage before printing. However from Photoline to QImage I don't need to make any colour adjustments. So what is it with PSP/Corel that even with Color Managment turned OFF it still 'plays' withe the colours. Why can't PSP/Corel simply default to the calibrated settings of the host computer?

If anyone knows a work around I would love to know. But the point of this post is that without my move to Photoline I wouldn't have realised how much PSP is changing the colours. I need accurate colours for my work. And I need all my tools to match those colours. PSP is the odd one out.

As it stands I think I'll stick with PSPx7 but only as a secondary tool for Photoline.

regards

[GMack]

This is a serious bug with PSP ! ! ! Why it alters the color on starting up in the logo screen is annoying!

I posted me experience with it earlier: http://forum.corel.com/EN/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=58529

At least my Eizo monitor's software (Color Navigator 6) calibration picks it up after PSP has run a bit and I can have it change it back to the default. It should not alter color management nor gamma if it is turned off!

Until Corel gets this fixed, I doubt if I'll upgrade any further as it's too much time wasted altering colors back to where they should be and not what PSP re-designs them too.

Mack

[Jean-Luc]

This is a serious bug with PSP ! ! ! Why it alters the color on starting up in the logo screen is annoying!
Mack

Try to disable color management inside PSP ...

The splash screen may be disabled too inside PSP (see Preferences...)

[brucet]

Something to note. I have PSPx7 installed on 3 computers. (Yes sorry Corel but 3. An old workhorse laptop that is my internet computer. A new laptop that is used for all editing. And one old desktop devoted just to printing). On all 3 computers I have PSPx7 with identical settings. Same work space some color management etc. Everything. Now on my editing laptop as PSPx7 starts my computer desktop changes colour. ie PSP is changing my systems color settings as it starts up. I can't reverse this change without turning off the computer and doing a reboot. This doesn't happen with either of my older computers. Every other program is then changed because PSP has changed my laptops color management.
If I don't start up PSP on my new laptop I can swap at will between computers and programs without any color issues. It's only when PSP starts that I get the miss match of colours. EVEN WITH Color Management TURNED OFF.

So what is PSP doing that is changing the color management on my new laptop?

regards

[Jean-Luc]

So what is PSP doing that is changing the color management on my new laptop?

See under
-> File
-> Color Management
-> Color Working Space
if the settings are the same on the three PSP ...

[brucet]

OK I've done quite a bit of testing on this. (Time wasting!!!) I have all three computers on the same desk. All actions are done on all computers together to note any differences. To the point of changing my desktop photo! One of which I accidently deleted. But for the sake of the exercise I tried to eliminate as many variables as I could.

Before Jean-Luc's post I have found one interesting difference. Under File/Color Management/Color working space I have a different result. The CMKY Profile drop down menu has NKCMYK and RSWOP on one computer. Of which RSWOP is selected. On my work/editing new laptop and old laptop I only get the RSWOP option. No NKCMYK. So I drew a blank. But after awhile I returned to the same menu and opened it again. Clicked on CMKY Profile. Still only one option. But I clicked on it anyway.

In frustration I turned everything off. All three computers. Went out for the afternoon. Last night I started up all three computers. Loaded PSPx7 and BINGO. The new laptop that had been giving me heartache was working. No colour change on start up.

So Two questions - 1/ Why would the CMKY Profile have only one option on two computers? 2/ Why, if at all, did clicking on the one and only option seem to fix the issue?

Now if I turn ON PSP's color Management everything goes down the drainpipe and we're back to the guessing game.

Over to the experts.

regards

[Jean-Luc]

So Two questions - 1/ Why would the CMKY Profile have only one option on two computers? 2/ Why, if at all, did clicking on the one and only option seem to fix the issue?

Now if I turn ON PSP's color Management everything goes down the drainpipe and we're back to the guessing game.

Over to the experts.

regards

If color rendering problems occur using PSP, it is best to turn the Color management OFF.
CMYK profile if for printers. PSP works in RGB and the computer screen is RGB too.
I suspect PSP loads the printer profile as a screen profile...

[GMack]

This is a serious bug with PSP ! ! ! Why it alters the color on starting up in the logo screen is annoying!
Mack

Try to disable color management inside PSP ...

The splash screen may be disabled too inside PSP (see Preferences...)

I tried disabling the log screen as suggested thinking that might be the issue, but still PSP X8 takes over the Windows 10 Color Management and will not go back unless I reboot the computer.

I have the notebook screen calibrated with an i1 PhotoPro 2 to a D65 screen by default. PSP X8 changes that to a warmer screen automatically when it launches. Can't go back to default screen without rebooting as it seems to take over and become a default color mess. I've tried various Color Preference in PSP X* but they are not working and still a mess on opening the program.

For fun, I placed a Sekonic C-500 Color temperature meter against the screen with just the white blank page of Windows 10 Notebook editor opened.

When the computer/notebook launches with Windows 10 Notebook's white page opened, the screen measures 7370K by default. Once the X-rite calibration becomes the normal running default a few seconds later, it drops to 6760K (I set D65 as the normal calibration default for sRGB on the notebook screen so its maybe 200K different. No biggie.

Now when I launch PSP X8, the Windows 10 Notebook white screen drops immediately to 5260K (Very warm) and remains that way unless I reboot. Only on a reboot does it appear within the D65 realm again. As mentioned before, the Eizo CG-248 Color Navigator 6 software automatically picks this upon the Eizo monitor's screen (and I can correct it on that one while running on-the-fly too), but the notebook remains messed up until rebooted.

I also tried setting the notebook's profile to a D75 off the x-rite i1 PhotoPro 2 and it boots with a Notebook white of 7370K, and then drops to 7550K so not bad for the D75 calibration. But don't even lauch PSP X8 else it drops to 5260K or a D52 model?).

Something is very buggy with PSP X8 with it setting it's own color management - and keeping it there until rebooted - no matter if one turns it all OFF in the program's Color Preferences.


Mack

[MarkZ]

I've come across many instances of advice in this forum to turn off Color Management and am puzzled. As far as I can tell the colour rendition in X8 is about the same as what appears in other programs. I am using basic Color Management on using the profile from my calibration unit, the same as what is used for my monitor. My colour acuity may not be very high and I don't have sophisticated colour measurement tools, but this seems to be working well. It makes me wonder if I'm missing something. I guess what matters is whether I'm satisfied with the colour rendition.

[brucet]

As I said in an earlier post, I spent way too much time on this yesterday, way toooooo much time.

First I always turn Color Management OFF in PSP. Always have. Yet there is still a problem.
On all three of my computers as PSP starts the color of the screen would change. (When you start PSP carefully watch you desktop and see if your colors change. This will happen as soon as you see the first splash screen appear). And as GMack states, it stays that way until you have a complete reboot.

I'm using Photoline and it will let me use PSP as an external program. Something I do for PSP's goodies. But the color in Photoline will change as soon as I flip to PSP the first time. Then it stays that way.
Now yesterday, in frustration, I started all three computers and painstakingly went through all of PSP's preference and matched them all on each of the computers. Nothing changed. However to get better feedback I started to change Windows settings. Even change my desktop photo. Still nothing. So back to PSP. Under File/Color Management/Color Work space I opened the CMKY Profile drop down menu. On my two laptops I only got a RSWOP option. On my desktop I also got a NKCMYK option. Why? Well the only thing I can think of is that my desktop is the only computer that is connected, or has ever been connected, to a printer. And what have these setting got to do with screen color management? Any way long story short. I clicked on these options, even though two computers gave only one option.
Turn PSP off. Turned the computers off. And rebooted them all. No idea what I did other than that. But now when I start PSP it doesn't change the desktop color on start up.

So take the above for what it's worth. The experts can dissect it all they like.

Now I start up Photoline, flip to PSP and everything stays the same.

regards

[GMack]

Mark,

You may not see a problem in PSP X8 unless you send it elsewhere: Say to a lab to be printed or someone else who works in a cooler D65/D75 color space at their end. Sure, your eyes can adjust and think all is fine at your end, but when others, the web, and even other brands of software, monitors or screens complain when they open a PSP X8 image of yours then something is wrong.

For the most part, webland/internet is D65 to D75 (Cooler colors), and the printer's go for a warmer D50 or D55 color space. A lot of Mac Retinas and Apple cellphones go for more "poppy & contrasty" (Although often incorrect. Retina=Sharper and more pixels, but not necessarily better color or shadow detail.) colors and contrast. Even my Samsung 4K phone favors a lot of blue on its AMOLED screen when emulated on a Eizo screen.

PSP X8 seems to put itself into the bizzare D52 area along with a different gamma for some unknown reason that I haven't sorted out. It's an odd place they planted their default opening settings at and it seem to stick them there unless the computer is rebooted. Why Photoshop seems to handle its color management better and not Corel is a big issue and likely why Adobe PS is still holding top-dog spot too. Corel's stuff shouldn't change on opening if color management is OFF...but it does! It's as though their opening editing screen (Logo?) is in some per-determined colorspace and everything within it and in post goes there too; i.e. it takes over the default colorspace until rebooted.

Eizo's Color Navigator 6 is smart enough to know something has changed when PSP X8 launches, and gives me the option to kick the PSP X8 changes off its monitor back to where it should be, but it leaves the mess it did behind on the notebook plugged into it until I reboot. Meanwhile, I work in two different color worlds now on one image. Bad option.


Mack

[MarkZ]

GMack, thanks for the analysis.

With respect to what Brucet experiences, I stumbled on something yesterday. I normally have Color Management on with the profile that was generated by my calibration process selected. On my computer I have calibration on for the monitor so that when PSP starts up there is no difference in the desktop colours when the splash screen appears.

Yesterday I ran into problems when installing other software and had to remove what had been installed and rebooted the computer. For some reason the calibration profile would not load. There is a substantial difference in colours between the calibration profile and the monitor default. When I started X8, still with Color Manager and the calibration profile selected, there was a substantial shift in the appearance of the desktop. Of course, this led to more experimentation.

With Color Manager off and Calibration off for my monitor, starting X8 results in a colour shift - strange, I thought. However, I noticed the top line (see below) shows the default profile that PSP uses when the Manager is off - I see no way to change that default but different profiles can be selected in Management. The other profiles in the list are the default monitor profile and the one generated by the calibrator. The files can be found at C:\Windows\System32\spool\drivers\color.

For me, the best approach is to use basic Color Management with my preferred, calibration profile. The default is terrible and I have no opinion about the sRGB Colour Space Profile.icm.

It appears to me that if there is a match between the profile the monitor uses and the one selected in PSP there should be no shift in colour at startup. I have no comment about colour shifting during a session which, I think, is what GMack experiences. If you are happy with the colour on your monitor outside of PSP, that should be attainable with PSP.

[GMack]

....

It appears to me that if there is a match between the profile the monitor uses and the one selected in PSP there should be no shift in colour at startup. I have no comment about colour shifting during a session which, I think, is what GMack experiences. If you are happy with the colour on your monitor outside of PSP, that should be attainable with PSP.

Fun huh Mark?

You might be right if you never go beyond your initial setup and installing PSP X8. The PSP X8 general workspace (Toolbars, headers, File menus, all that GUI stuff on the screen even without your image yet opened.) may have its own colorspace it runs within and takes over from other calibration/monitor methods. Annoying that I have to reboot Windows 10 to discard it too and get back to the calibrated screen - or go to the Eizo to look when it tells me "PSPS X8 has changed color and gamma. Do you want to go back to default?" Then I blink a whole lot...

As it is, PSP X8 and changing the Color Preferences and everything OFF does little good if it runs within its own "program operating colorspace" when opening and changes things around to suit itself. No way to know what you are looking at is correct for the printer, somewhere or someone else; that or reboot and look to see what the PSP X8 altered (??) image looks like in Photoshop. Why PS and PSP differs so much on color management is maddening! It's like PS stays neutral, and PSPS X8 has its own opinion on color when running.

Just open Notepad (Text editor) and watch how the screen changes color when PSP X8 launches - and it stays that way even when PSP X8 closes until you re-boot. OFF should be OFF and not opening up with something strange. Ugh!!!

Come on Corel! (Okay, fix the wonky Nikon D800E CA aberrations with the RAW converter while you're at it too! Should be a supported camera by now.).

Mack

[MarkZ]

Just open Notepad (Text editor) and watch how the screen changes color when PSP X8 launches - and it stays that way even when PSP X8 closes until you re-boot. OFF should be OFF and not opening up with something strange. Ugh!!!

When I do that nothing changes - Notepad colour stays the same and no change when I close X8. That was my point, I have the same profile selected in PSP (basic Color Management on) that I use for my monitor. What happens in your case if you do that?

Annoying that I have to reboot Windows 10 to discard it too and get back to the calibrated screen -

Wouldn't it be simpler to go into Colour Management in Windows and select the profile you want - no rebooting? I did this a few times going back and forth between my calibration profile and the monitor manufacturer's profile. I did this in Control Panel\Appearance and Personalization\Display\Screen Resolution, then advanced settings and colour management.

[GMack]

Mark, thanks for your help.

I get to the Windows 10 "Color Management" differently by just typing "Color Management" in the gray "Search the web and Windows" in the bottom left toolbar. Faster than Control Panel, etc.

Fwiw, I have "i1 Display Pro D65" (Sometimes D75) as my default calibrated space on the notebook. That presents a cooler blue screen which is web-suited than being warmer.

When I open X8, it goes orangish/yellow in Notepad's white area and the contrast drops (to about 5,200 K when I measured it). Eizo picks it up on the secondary monitor and doesn't like it. Remains stuck that way. PSP X8 Color Management is set to the default of "i1 Display Pro D65" as well. I cannot go back to the D65 without re-booting. That setting of "i1 Display Pro D65" is showing in the X8 "Image, graphic, or test generated by: i1 Display Pro D76" but it is not true as it changes to the warmer orange/yellow. Same "i1 Display Pro D76" when first started too without X8 in Windows Color Management panel. Bizarre as the same "i1 Display Pro D76" shows up in X8, but it changes by itself to something else.

Interesting as I just tried opening the X8 "Color Management > Monitor Calibration" and the orangish whites went to a blue white once the "Monitor Calibration Wizard" popped up? Back to orange when I closed it (Didn't change anything in there.). I wouldn't think that pane would change color too, but it did.

The "Color Working Space" seems to have zero effect on my notebook screen no matter how I set it for some reason. Program is holding onto a very warm profile someplace. No images are opened and running.

I dunno. Have to stay with PS, or anything else I guess, since X8 is behaving poorly here. Can't rely on its orange color it goes to.

Mack