Wavelet Denoise problems

[cooltouch]

Howdy folks,

I've been using Paint Shop Pro since JASC version 4.0 and I've gotten so used to it that I prefer it over all other image editing software packages I've tried. This includes several different versions of Photoshop, including CS6, Lightroom, including v2.3, and quite a few other also-rans. Currently I'm running X7 on a Win7 platform and I'm thinking very seriously about taking Corel up on its limited time offer of $39 for X8. I installed the X8 demo a few months back and used it like once, I think, then forgot about it. Now, the demo has expired, so I can't go back and refresh myself on its differences and improvements vis-a-vis X7. But that's not the subject of this post.

I've tried installing Noise Ninja into an X7 subdirectory and setting it up in the Preferences menu selection, but that doesn't seem to work. So I have to boot Photoshop to "denoise" my files before I edit them in PSP. I think Noise Ninja does a decent job -- not great, just decent -- but I don't know of any that are better. Still, I'd like to find a good denoise program for PSP -- preferably a free, or at least cheap, one.

And that's where Wavelet Denoise comes in. I found out about it after doing a search here and followed up on it, d/l'd a copy from gimp.org and tried to install it. When I click on wavelet-denoise.exe (found within the wavelet-denoise-0.3.1_Win32/plug-ins folder), after it unzips, it generates this error message:

The program can't start because libgimp-2.0-0.dll is missing from your computer. Try reinstalling the program to fix this problem.

So, I'm thinking, maybe I need to install Gimp? So that's what I do. And whoa! It's been like almost 20 years since the last time I tried Gimp, and let me just say, I'm impressed with how far it's come. So I'll be giving it a closer look later. But for now, I want to get to the bottom of this error. So anyway, after I install Gimp I go back to the plug-in and try running wavelet-denoise.exe again. And I get the same message. So now I'm wondering, just what "program" is this error message referring to anyway? Can't be wavelet-denoise.exe, since I can't get to first base with it. And while Wavelet's zip file also conntains a GIMP-2.0 folder, I can't find anything executable inside it anywhere. Just a gimp20-denoise-wavelet-2.0-plug-in.MO file in several different language directories, none of which are English. So I selected the one spelled closest to it -- ET -- and I took a look at the MO file in Notepad, and it has some binary code, followed by this:

Adjusts the threshold for denoising in a range from 0.0 (none) to 10.0. The threshold is the value below which everything is considered noise. Adjusts the threshold for denoising of the selected channel in a range from 0.0 (none) to 10.0. The threshold is the value below which everything is considered noise. All Alpha CIELAB (L*a*b*) is a color model in which chrominance is separated from lightness and color distances are perceptually uniform. Note that this choice drastically affects the result. Channel select Channel settings Color model Copyright 2008 Marco Rossini Display all channels of the image (final image). Display only the selected channel in color mode. Display only the selected channel in grayscale mode. Marco Rossini Preview channel Removes noise in the image using wavelets. Reset Reset all Reset channel Resets all channels to the default values. Resets the current channel to the default values. Resets the settings for the selected channel while the button is pressed. Resets to the default values. Select an image channel to edit its denoising settings. Selected Selected (color) Selected (gray) Settings Softness The RGB color model separates an image into channels of red, green, and blue. This is the default color model in GIMP. Note that this choice drastically affects the result. The YCbCr color model has one luminance channel (Y) which contains most of the detail information of an image (such as brightness and contrast) and two chroma channels (Cb = blueness, Cr = reddness) that hold the color information. Note that this choice drastically affects the result. This adjusts the softness of the thresholding (soft as opposed to hard thresholding). The higher the softness the more noise remains in the image. Default is 0.0. This plugin allows the separate denoising of image channels in multiple color spaces using wavelets. Threshold Wavelet denoise Wavelet denoising... _Wavelet denoise ... Project-Id-Version: wavelet-denoise 0.3
Report-Msgid-Bugs-To:
POT-Creation-Date: 2008-12-19 15:16+0200
PO-Revision-Date: 2008-12-19 15:17+0200
Last-Translator: jyri <jyrkal@gmail.com>
Language-Team: Estonian
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Plural-Forms: nplurals=2; plural=(n != 1);
Reguleerib tundlikkuse müratasanduseks 0.0 (none) kuni 10.0. Reguleerib tundlikusläve müratasanduseks selekteeritud kanalis Suurusega 0.0 kuni 10.0. Kõik Alfa CIELAB (L*a*b*) on värviruum, kus värvid ja heledus on eraldatud värvitaju pikkuste suhtega. Selline valik omab tugevat mõju tulemusele Kanalivalik Kanali seaded Värviruum Copyright 2008 Marco Rossini Näita pildi kõiki kanaleid (lõplik pilt). Näita ainult valitud kanalit värviliselt Näita ainult valitud kanalit halltoonides. Marco Rossini Kanali eelvaade Eemalda müra Wavelettide abiga. Reseti Reseti kõik Reseti kanal Taastab kõikide kanalite vaikeväärtused. Taastab valitud kanalis vaikeväärtuse Taastad ajutiselt väikeväärtused valitud kanalis nuppu all hoides Taastab vaikeväärtused. Vali pildikanal müravähenuse seadistamiseks Valitud Valitud (värv) Valitud (hall) Seadistused Pehmus RGB värviruum jaotab pildi kolmeks (punane, roheline ja sinine) kanaliks.See on tavaline värviruum GIMP-is. Selline valik omab tugevat mõju tulemusele YCbCr värviruum omab Valgustiheduse kanalit (Y), mis suuremas osas hoiab pildi kujutise detailide infot (Nagu näiteks Heledust ja Kontrasti) ja kaks värvi kanalit (Cb = sinisus, Cr = punasus) hoiavad värviinfotSelline valik omab tugevat mõju tulemusele Reguleerib tundlikuse pehmust (pehme üleminek või terav üleminek) Mida suurem ülemineku pehmus seda rohkem müra jääb.Vaikeväärtus on 0.0. See Plugin lubab eraldi kanalite müravähendust erinevates värviruumides wavelettie abiga. Tundlikkus Lainemüra vähendaja Lainemüra vähendaine... _Lainemüravähendaja ...

So, I'll admit it -- I'm stuck. What does it take to install Wavelet Denoise? And just what is the program that installs libgimp-2.0-0.dll? And why wasn't it included in this download so I don't have to go through this needless frustration? You know, none of these routines mentioned that I need to restart my computer, but now I'm wondering if that's what I need to do. So, I'm gonna reboot the machine now, and I'll check back in later.

[JoeB]

Wavelet Denoise is a plugin for Gimp, not a standalone program nor a plugin that will work with PSP. You should be posting in the Gimp forums for an answer to your issues I'm afraid.

[cooltouch]

Yes, I realize Wavelet is a denoise plugin for Gimp, but the thing is, I learned about it from doing a search on the topic of denoise plugins here. So, pardon my error. There must be several users of Gimp here because I got a number of hits where it was discussed.

Anyway, I went ahead and downloaded a copy of Topaz and I'll say this about it -- after playing around with it for a while, I was quite surprised to find that, using it to remove excess grain from some slides I've scanned, its performance is essentially identical to PSP's One Step Noise Removal command. Yes, Topaz obviously has more control, but to get it to the level of grain removal that I wanted, its performance was indistinguishable from the above command. Or so it seems to me. The biggest problem I have with the One Step command has been that there have been times I've wished it would not be quite so pronounced. But in order to achieve the effect I was after -- excess grain removal -- Topaz was just as strong. I found that to be quite interesting. I'll play around with it some more.

One of the problems I've had with PSP is its lack of control when handling raw files. I discovered Aftershot 2 at the Corel website yesterday (I don't go there that often) and downloaded a trial. So far, I like what I see, including its built-in noise control. Even though it's "just" a raw converter (supposedly), it reminds me a lot of Lightroom and does much the same thing as LR. Far as that goes, PSP after version X6 or so reminds me of LR, but that's another subject. So I may not even need to use the Topaz plug-in, and if AS2 does a good enough job, I may not even need to use PSP nearly as much as I typically do when processing photos. I'm wondering -- those of you who use AS2, do you find you use PSP less now than before?

[JoeB]

Yes, I realize Wavelet is a denoise plugin for Gimp, but the thing is, I learned about it from doing a search on the topic of denoise plugins here. So, pardon my error. There must be several users of Gimp here because I got a number of hits where it was discussed.

Yes, some forum users do also use Gimp or have used it in the past. But you'll likely get faster -- and perhaps somewhat more detailed -- info from the larger group of users in Gimp forums who use the program most of the time.

The biggest problem I have with the One Step command has been that there have been times I've wished it would not be quite so pronounced. But in order to achieve the effect I was after -- excess grain removal -- Topaz was just as strong. I found that to be quite interesting. I'll play around with it some more.

One way around the problem of a filter like that which almost gives you the look you want but is a bit too strong is to first duplicate the layer and run the filter on the duplicate. Then lower the opacity of that duplicate to allow some of the original layer underneath to show through a bit, thus seeing a bit more detail from that bottom layer.

[cooltouch]

Thanks for the response, Joe. Yes, I agree that the best place for Gimp advice is the Gimp forums. If I play around much more with Gimp, I will definitely look up the Gimp forums.

I don't use layers all that much, but what you describe makes a lot of sense. It would have never occurred to me to approach things that way, but now I gotta go give it a try. Thanks much for the tip.

[gbotes]

cooltouch, I've used three good denoising plugins in Paint Shop Pro X8, and one of them has a free version.

The free one is the Colormancer free Boundary Noise Reduction plugin, found here: http://www.colormancer.com/free/downloa ... uction.htm

The other two are Google's Nik Collection Dfine, found here: https://www.google.com/nikcollection/products/dfine/,
and Topaz Labs Denoise, found here: http://www.topazlabs.com/denoise

They all have their strengths and weaknesses. I prefer Topaz Labs Denoise when I'm working on special images that I'm going to take time to edit because it allows you to tweak and refine the noise reduction a lot, and I prefer Google's Nik Collection Dfine when I'm batch processing a large number of images for a client or project as it's more "automatic" for the most part.

PSP's built-in noise removal is fairly good, but does not match either Denoise or Dfine, in my opinion. Colormancer's free Boundary Noise reduction tends to be slow, but can produce startlingly good results. Like with most things, noise reduction is a matter of taste and aesthetics, and each photographer will have his/her own preference.

If you look at Google's Nik Collection, my experience is that all their plugins mostly work within PSP X8 on Windows 7 (64-bit) BUT don't use control points within the plugins - they will cause a crash. Also, on my system, Viveza works but does not always display colors correctly. Dfine, however, works brilliantly.

I see you have tried Topaz labs Denoise. It's my view that the Topaz Labs plugins are a very good investment as they will work within PSP, Photoshop and Photoshop Elements, and many other host programs that support Photoshop plugins. And once you have bought the software, it seems you get free upgrades for life (according to their web page). If you take photography seriously and are willing to spend a bit, that seems a very good investment of your time and money - and no, I don't work for Topaz Labs nor do I get paid by them

However, as you've pointed out, PSP's noise removal is quite passable, and if you don't plan on making money from your images, you'll very likely find that you don't need or want more than that. And JoeB has pointed out that using layers is very important - you will always get much better results with them, than without.

I came to PSP X8 from Gimp, which I used for years to edit my photographs. I chose PSP X8 because it best suited my needs for batch processing, and for using Photoshop plugins. Gimp remains a very powerful application, but I find Aftershot and PSP X8 better for working with the large numbers of images from a photoshoot.

Oh, one last thing, ALWAYS test the trial version of any photo editing software and plugins before you buy. Most companies give you a 15 - 30 day trial, and this has saved me lots of money. Some applications I found just didn;t do what I needed after testing them, and some just didn't run on my system.

[JoeB]

I don't use layers all that much, but what you describe makes a lot of sense. It would have never occurred to me to approach things that way, but now I gotta go give it a try. Thanks much for the tip.

I suggest that you become much more familiar with layers and how to use them. It is an extremely versatile feature of graphic programs that most people use extensively for many and varied purposes. I can't imagine doing extensive work on an image without layers. And I always start work on a duplicate layer above the original so that I can always turn on and off visibility of various upper layers to make quick comparisons of how manipulations I've done on the upper layer(s) compare to the original.

[MarkZ]

. . . using it to remove excess grain from some slides I've scanned, its performance is essentially identical to PSP's One Step Noise Removal command.

Rather than One Step Noise Removal for scanned film and slides I've used the Digital Noise Removal which provides some user interaction.

[cooltouch]

Well, thanks for all the feedback, guys. You've given me a lot to think about.

I guess it's high time I get over doing everything to the background image and try using layers. My daughter, who is a very talented multi-media artist and computer animator by profession, makes extensive use of layers in Photoshop and probably other high-end programs she uses for her animation work. I've tried to get her to give me some tips on the subject, but she's a doer more than a teacher, so things don't usually get very far when I try to pick her brain.

Any sites on the 'net or books y'all recommend for improving ones PSP technique? Oh, and btw, I'm totally steamed that I missed out on Corel's sale of X8 for $39 by one day, so it's gonna be a while before I upgrade. It's the season for setting spending priorities and all. Besides, I like X7 just fine and don't really know if I'll see much of a difference. Unless Corel has finally decided to fully support at least 16 bit images with X8. That might get me moving.

[JoeB]

Well, thanks for all the feedback, guys. You've given me a lot to think about.

I guess it's high time I get over doing everything to the background image and try using layers. My daughter, who is a very talented multi-media artist and computer animator by profession, makes extensive use of layers in Photoshop and probably other high-end programs she uses for her animation work. I've tried to get her to give me some tips on the subject, but she's a doer more than a teacher, so things don't usually get very far when I try to pick her brain.

Any sites on the 'net or books y'all recommend for improving ones PSP technique? Oh, and btw, I'm totally steamed that I missed out on Corel's sale of X8 for $39 by one day, so it's gonna be a while before I upgrade. It's the season for setting spending priorities and all. Besides, I like X7 just fine and don't really know if I'll see much of a difference. Unless Corel has finally decided to fully support at least 16 bit images with X8. That might get me moving.

The main concept of layers is simple. If you start with the background image and duplicate it, all you're doing is making a copy of the background layer on top of the background layer. Working on it means you aren't damaging the original plus you still have the original available to view simply by turning off the visibility of the layers above it. Another example is when you lay down a Picture Tube image. If you have the Create as New Raster Layer checkbox in its toolbar selected it creates a layer above whatever layer you have selected (highlighted) in the layers palette to place the tube image onto, and that tube image is surrounded by transparency so you can see the rest of the lower layer underneath the tube image. You can drag that tube image around with the Move tool as long as you click on a non-transparent part of that tube image layer when you click and drag.

The main basic thing to remember when working with layers is that you have to make sure that the layer you wish to work on is selected/highlighted in the Layers palette. If it isn't, whatever manipulation or effect you are trying to apply will be applied to whatever layer is selected and if that layer is below the layer you're working on you won't realize why you aren't seeing anything happen (because it's hidden by the upper layer).

Layers can be moved up and down in the Layers palette so that you can move stuff behind other stuff or on top of other stuff or overlapping other stuff. Layers have Blend Modes, with various options for blending the colors of an upper layer with the colors of the layer beneath it with a bunch of different effects. You can change the opacity of a layer to allow the layer below it to show through the upper layer in varying amounts.

And that's just a basic idea of what you can do with layers. It is pretty vital to learn how to use layers if you want to not only save time but also be able to do much more image editing and manipulation than is possible with working on only one layer. The time saving itself is enormous! It will pay you to take the time to learn how to use them. There is tons of info on using layers with a quick internet search. Have fun!

[photodrawken]

Any sites on the 'net or books y'all recommend

If you search the Web for "Introduction to layers in Photoshop" you'll get enough hits to get you started. For example, there's this one:
http://www.photoshopessentials.com/basi ... ers-intro/

[gbotes]

I started here:http://learn.corel.com/photo/tutorials/ ... -Beginners

YouTube has some tutorials as well.

[cooltouch]

Thanks again, guys. Time for me to get busy.

I have one more question. I've been using HDR routines to bring out shadow detail with a few slides I shot that were underexposed, but still showed good detail in the shadows. I've had mixed results doing this. Do you think that I'll have better luck with layers than with HDR?

[JoeB]

Thanks again, guys. Time for me to get busy.

I have one more question. I've been using HDR routines to bring out shadow detail with a few slides I shot that were underexposed, but still showed good detail in the shadows. I've had mixed results doing this. Do you think that I'll have better luck with layers than with HDR?

It depends on what your mixed results are. You can use layers or selections or a combination of both in some cases. If your problem is that the HDR is causing parts of the image to look better than other parts even with proper settings then you can isolate - in advance - the parts that need HDR work with a selection and then apply HDR only to the selected part. Or duplicate the layer first and run HDR on the upper layer and erase the parts that came out too bright to show the original layer below Or select part of the upper layer that the HDR filter was too aggressive with and promote that selection to a layer and change its opacity to let some of the original bottom layer blend with it to soften the aggressive action of the HDR filter. How effective various uses of layers are will depend on the exact issue you're dealing with which will dictate the proper approach.

[cooltouch]

Well, it's easier to show mixed results than it is to describe them. Here's one example slide. The first image is basically the slide as exposed. The two following shots are after doing quite a bit of HDR and other massaging to the images. The first "massaged" photo seems to be a bit too washed out, to me. Actually, I think the last image is almost acceptable. More than acceptable for my purposes, which was to use it as a scene for a painting I'm working on.