More about White Balance X7

[Jean-Luc]

Following our discussion and what Brucet said about "Subjectivity", I will propose to Corel a modification of the default main menu in the future versions.
Under Adjust, the "White Balance" option should be replaced by the following:

The 3 first items (White Balance, Gray World.. and Automatic...) should be considered as "subjective white balance" and the last (Black & white...) should be the "objective white balance" tool.
I know we can create this menu ourself but for first time users, it could be more explicit to see those options by default and not in the unused commands.
What do you think?
Jean-Luc

[LindaSue]

The problem for me is that I don't want to spend a long time taking photos.

I sure can relate to that. I hate taking photos (and editing them) but I have to take beadwork photos for my blog. I use natural light from a nearby window and have to wait until the sunlight is just right before I can take my photos. I don't use any special equipment and try to keep the process as quick and simple as possible. I keep my camera on the "point and shoot" setting because it does a great job and I'd hate to have to mess with any settings.

[CMurd]

Following our discussion and what Brucet said about "Subjectivity", I will propose to Corel a modification of the default main menu in the future versions.
Under Adjust, the "White Balance" option should be replaced by the following:

X8 white balance tools.jpg

The 3 first items (White Balance, Gray World.. and Automatic...) should be considered as "subjective white balance" and the last (Black & white...) should be the "objective white balance" tool.
I know we can create this menu ourself but for first time users, it could be more explicit to see those options by default and not in the unused commands.
What do you think?
Jean-Luc

I'm sorry I was slow in responding. I didn't notice that the thread had gone to a second page.

I'm not sure that "Gray World White Balance" is the kind of phrasing that people will understand. People who use photo-editing programs just need to understand what the term "white balance" means, and that it applies to grays also. At best, I think they could rename it White/Gray Balance" or just "Color Balance". In my view, all that's needed is to add Black and White Points under the White Balance entry. Since white balance doesn't work intuitively in PSP, that options should be given.

Thanks to LindaSue I have decided to photograph some beads in front of a window. Her results are excellent, and I forgot how good window light can be.

[CMurd]

I sure can relate to that. I hate taking photos (and editing them) but I have to take beadwork photos for my blog. I use natural light from a nearby window and have to wait until the sunlight is just right before I can take my photos. I don't use any special equipment and try to keep the process as quick and simple as possible. I keep my camera on the "point and shoot" setting because it does a great job and I'd hate to have to mess with any settings.

LindaSue, it's nice to have someone else into beading posting on this forum. I looked through your blog, and your designs are lovely. I notice that you use Czech beads, which is mostly what I sell, which makes me wonder why I'm not seeing MY beads in your designs!

Your presentation for your designs is interesting and unique (on printed paper or pictures). It is very effective.

For years and years, I photographed my beads just the way that you are: in natural daylight from a window. I used a Canon point-and-shoot camera set to Automatic. However, all my pictures came out too dark, and then I discovered Exposure Compensation (which lightens or darkens the picture). Now I photograph my beads at about five different EC settings, and later I pick the picture that looks the best. I also learned the importance of setting my camera to the right light source, so I switched to the Program setting to allow me to do that. The Program setting is like Automatic, except that you can override individual default settings. LindaSue, if you have any interest in exchanging notes, I can tell you about all the tips and tricks I've learned over the years. My email address is caleb[at]purebeads.com.

I also have many post-processing tips that I can give you. I find these features particularly useful: White Balance (or Black and White Points), Hue/Saturation, Lighten Shadows or Histograph Adjustment, Sharpen and Clarity.

But getting back to how I photograph my beads, I eventually upgraded to a "system" camera with a large sensor. I found that the new camera wasn't quite as good as the point-and-shoot at getting the entire frame sharp, so I did some experimenting and started using Aperture-Priority mode (but you won't need to do that with your camera). I also discovered that the new camera gives good results under two daylight-balanced lamps, so that's the way I am doing it now. Using lamps allows me to photograph beads at night. The different between two lamps and using a window is that the two lamps leave two bright spots on the beads, and the window leaves one very large white spot on the beads. Which looks better depends on the beads that I'm photographing.

[brucet]

I'll stay with my use of 'subjectivity' for the sake of this thread. White Balance is a bit like Colour Management. There are technically correct answers/approaches. However due to the very nature and complexity of 'factors' there are many variables that a simple 'black and white', pun intended, approach wont suit many users. (The very fact that PSP is used for so many different tasks makes a basic approach all but impossible). Camera settings, monitor setups and our perception of what is 'correct' all add to the complexity.

I like Jean-Luc approach/suggestion. My only caveat is to be very careful with the selection of titles used to describe each option. Make it very clear what they are for.

At the end of the day most users simply want a way to find a result that 'looks right' and aren't concerned with the 'technically correct' answer.

Regards

[CMurd]

Brucet, I didn't mean to say that subjectivity doesn't play any role at all, and I apologize for that. After using the White Balance tool on the white background in my picture, I'll find that the beads don't have the right color, so I'll Undo it and just allow the background to be slightly yellow.

Monitors are probably our biggest problem. Colors on my old CRT were more true than they are on my LCD monitor. I am completely unable to achieve certain colors on my LCD monitor, specifically ruby red and cobalt blue. Ruby red and fire-engine red always come out looking slightly orange, and cobalt blue comes out looking like sapphire blue. Perhaps, however, it is my camera which is the problem (although I bought a camera with good color accuracy). (Talking about cameras, camera manufacturers purposely skew the colors to make them look nicer.)

With so many devices coming into the equation (cameras, color programs and monitors), getting a true color on your monitor is nearly impossible. And I haven't even mentioned printers -- or the fact that our eyes don't see everything the same.

[brucet]

CMurd no problems at all.
I just think we always need to keep in mind that we are all doing something different and have different needs. If Corel makes changes that suit more users, great. But don't change just for change sake.

regards

[Jean-Luc]

With so many devices coming into the equation (cameras, color programs and monitors), getting a true color on your monitor is nearly impossible.

Yes, of course. It is the reason why it is important to know if the balance is "really" correct. If the gray values are almost equal (R=G=B), the color is really neutral. If this neutral gray looks yellowish or blue, etc., the screen must be corrected (settings, etc.).
I think "subjective white balance" is mostly related to non-professional photographers. They don't need correct colors but colors which are "pretty", "nice", "pleasant", etc. But if you are a serious or professional photographer, for example selling on the web, you need to have strictly correct (real) colors for your beads, clothing, shoes, lipsticks, colouring pencils, cars, fine art prints, etc.

It may help if you use a Gray Card Reference during your photographic process : http://michaeltapesdesign.com/whibal.html

[CMurd]

I think "subjective white balance" is mostly related to non-professional photographers. They don't need correct colors but colors which are "pretty", "nice", "pleasant", etc. But if you are a serious or professional photographer, for example selling on the web, you need to have strictly correct (real) colors for your beads, clothing, shoes, lipsticks, colouring pencils, cars, fine art prints, etc.

As an internet merchant, it's important to have correct colors. People can and do return items that aren't the color they see on your site. By default, cameras will produce images with over-saturated colors that make products look nicer than they are, and I always tone the colors down a little. It is better, in my view, that a customer not buy an item because the picture makes it look ordinary, than to have a customer buy an item because it looks great in the picture, but then be disappointed when it arrives.

[brucet]

Jean-Luc I'm offended by your "I think "subjective white balance" is mostly related to non-professional photographers. They don't need correct colors but colors which are "pretty", "nice", "pleasant", etc. But if you are a serious or professional photographer, for example selling on the web, you need to have strictly correct (real) colors for your beads, clothing, shoes, lipsticks, colouring pencils, cars, fine art prints, etc." statement. A statement based on 'snobbery' and a total lack of thought.

I've sold more photos than I can count. I've licensed/negotiated sales of my photos in excess of 4.1 million copies. And your statements implies I'm not a professional nor serious. Rubbish. I suggest that you re think your statement and have a hard look at the definition of a 'professional' photographer.

Narrow minded and short sighted comments only create more problems. The photography world doesn't revolve around your opinion of what is a 'professional' based on your own requirements.

regards

[Jean-Luc]

Hi Brucet,
sorry if I offended you.
I'm a French speaking people and I'm not so fluent in English like you.
I only know simple words in English so you could misinterpret what I mind.
I have never said YOU are non-professional. I said "is mostly related to". I made a difference between what most people need and what more technically minded people (not the majority) need on their side. The majority of people who makes photos are non-professional. Corel has oriented his product, PSP, to those people (subjective white balance, one-click tools, etc.). If you, a professional, prefer to work with PSP specific white balance tools, it is your choice and you are happy with and satisfied with. You are not wrong if you produce good pictures which are selling well. Your choice doesn't make you non-professional or I'm wrong?
I'm a professional too :
http://www.competencemicro.com/booklet.php?id=106
Best regards,
Jean-Luc

[LindaSue]

After using the White Balance tool on the white background in my picture, I'll find that the beads don't have the right color, so I'll Undo it and just allow the background to be slightly yellow.

Your comment reminded me of one of my "rules" when editing my beadwork photos in PSP. I try not to worry if the background color isn't right as long as my beadwork is as close to the correct color. Even that is difficult to achieve sometimes because getting the colored beads in a piece to look the correct color can throw off the color of the metallic seed beads next to them. I don't do it often but there have been times when I've manually edited the color of each individual main beads in a project just so that the rest of the beads come out the right color.

I've never had much luck taking my beadwork photos on a white background. I photograph most of my projects on a piece of scrapbook paper that I found at a craft store. For some reason my camera is able to interpret the colors pretty close to correct when I use that greenish blue paper for the background. I've tried other color background papers and they rarely work as well with the colors of my beads. Below is an example of some earrings on the greenish blue paper. To get the bead colors correct, the background paper looks a lot more gray than it really is but that's not important.



Here is a bracelet photo where the background is closer to its true color:

[MarkZ]

Following our discussion and what Brucet said about "Subjectivity", I will propose to Corel a modification of the default main menu in the future versions. . . .
Jean-Luc

And in addition to your proposal there is the white balance in New Adjustment Layer that is quite different from all the others. I don't understand Corel's philosophy in having so many versions of white balance but on the other hand the user can experiment and decide what works best. For me there also seems to be confusion in PSP between white balance and colour adjustment tools.

New Adjustment Layer - White Balance

[rondo]

While I haven't compared the White Balance tool in X3 to later versions, in X4,X5 & X6 I often encounter the same problems with the default settings and eye dropper tool, and most often have to end up tweaking the Advanced controls to get the lighting look I want.

The only other program I've used a White Balance tool much in is DxO Optics Pro on my Raw images, and the default settings, even after sampling with it's eyedropper tool always need tweaked to get the desired result.

[Jean-Luc]

For me there also seems to be confusion in PSP between white balance and colour adjustment tools.

Thank you for reminding me the "white balance" option with layer adjustment.
But as you say, it is more a colour adjustment tool than a strictly white balance tool.
I'll place it in my "subjective white balance" section...

I've found another possibility to set the white balance with droppers: the Curves tool.

Curves tool

In my screen capture you see the result before/after (using the three droppers).
Here the image for testing:

Test image