More about White Balance X7

[CMurd]

I previously started a thread in which I tried to understand the Advanced options in White Balance (that thread didn't clear it up for me). Now I have a slightly different problem.

First, let me say that because Corel's upgrade prices are so high, I don't upgrade to every new version. For example, I jumped from X3 to X7. So upgrading to X8 is not an option.

I photograph colorful products (glass beads) on a white background (actually, a white plate) for my business site (http://www.purebeads.com). My old camera (a Corel point-and-shoot) generally resulted in a plate that looked white, but my new "system" camera makes the white plate look slightly yellow, so I am using the White Balance feature more. In PSP X3, Smart White Balance always worked perfectly, making the background look white. But in PSP X7, I can't make the background look white no matter what setting I choose. I have gone down the options (cloudy, daylight, factory defaults, etc.), and they ALL result in either a background that is a little too blue, or a background that is slightly pink.

So I clicked on the Advanced options to use the Dropper tool. Again, by using the Dropper on the white background in X3 I would always get satisfactory results, but using the dropper on the white background in X7 generally results in a background which is too blue. (Incidentally, my judgements about the hue of the background are confirmed when I use the Dropper tool.)

In other words, WHITE BALANCE SIMPLY ISN'T WORKING!

My work-around is that I am pulling my picture into X3 to do the white balance, and then I pull it into X7 to make other adjustments. I would remain working in X3 except that X3 has bugs in it that make the program crash.

Can anyone help me?

[not2techie]

It sounds like you are relying on the program to do all of the figuring for you. I have not found that to be the best way to go. My camera is not great on white balance, and the very first thing I have to do with every image, is adjust just the WB in PSP. Instead of relying on what PSP thinks it should be, I use the drop down and click White Balance. PSP automatically changes it to what it thinks it should be, but I then move and adjust the sliders around, until my whites actually look white. Have you tried it that way?

[CMurd]

I appreciate your suggestions, but they don't really help. If White Balance was working perfectly in version X3, why shouldn't it work in X7? Up through version X3, White Balance was a "no brainer" tool that always gave great results. I frankly don't want to start using the sliders -- firstly, because it is a lot of time and trouble to adjust white balance that way, and secondly because I have never understood the logic of having two sets of sliders. (The two sets of sliders were explained to me in another thread, but I still don't understand the logic.)

If you're not getting good results from Smart White Balance in X7, you may be having the same problem that I'm having. When it is working properly, it will search for a large area of white or near-white, and then it will adjust the picture accordingly. In my case, the background in all my pictures is white, so it should be working for me (as it does in X3).

It's especially annoying to me that even the Dropper tool doesn't work when I go into Advanced. I'll click on the white background, but the background will remain bluish in the preview window.

[edwinn]

First, let me say that.. I don't upgrade to every new version. For example, I jumped from X3 to X7.

In PSP X3, Smart White Balance always worked perfectly, making the background look white. But in PSP X7, I can't make the background look white no matter what setting I choose. I have gone down the options (cloudy, daylight, factory defaults, etc.)

In other words, WHITE BALANCE SIMPLY ISN'T WORKING!

I purchased X7U and had a hard time with WHITES, to the extent that trying to adjust images with TOPAZ filters was impossible. Didn't know if what I was looking at (what was rendered) was real, or tainted? No sense trying to adjusted a render-tainted image.

Had to stop using X7 due to this and a couple other issues.

Installed X8 Trial this morning, and see that EVERYTHING displayed in MANAGER-Preview or EDITspace is badly tainted with yellow-orange shade. The thumbnails have pure white tones otherwise. Will be posting on this soon (found your thread searching for similar issues).

Could be due to the integrated video processor (onboard/mainboard video chip) that lacks resources?

-Ed

[CMurd]

I got X7 for two reasons: X3 crashes when I use a tool with Preview on Image turned on. I could minimize the crashes by keeping the Preview on Image box unchecked in all the tools, but it was still somewhat unstable. I also liked the Clarity tool in X7 -- so I upgraded. But now, what I have to do is to pull an image into X3 to adjust the white balance, and then pull it into X7 to finish my edits. It's too much work.

I wonder if X4, X5 and X6 might be more stable than X3 was, and if any of those versions has the Clarity tool. Can anyone advise me which of those versions is the best?

[Kathy_9]

I wonder if X4, X5 and X6 might be more stable than X3 was, and if any of those versions has the Clarity tool. Can anyone advise me which of those versions is the best?

In my opinion, all of those versions (X4 thru X6) are more stable than X3.

When you say Clarity tool, are you referring to Adjust -> Brightness & Contrast -> Fill Light/Clarity? If so, they all have it.

As far as which version is best, only you can answer that as everyone's needs and expectations are different. I know from reading a couple of your topics that white balance is important to you but I don't see the issues that you do with white balance so I can't suggest a version for you.

[CMurd]

Kathy, that's very useful information. I'm glad to know that I can look for any of those interim versions and get something more stable than X3.

X3 does not have the Clarity feature. It does have a feature called Clarify, which was renamed Local Tone Mapping in later versions (but which darkens pictures as it "clarifies" them, which is very different from how the Clarity feature works).

Versions X4 through X6 can still be found. I'll probably end up with X6.

Tell me, when did Corel change the interface of PSP? By that I mean, when did they limit the "skin" colors that you could use? I think it was before X7, but I'm not sure. That's always bothered me.

[Kathy_9]

I'm going to assume by "skin" that you are referring to the workspace color. In X6 you are limited to either light gray or dark gray. You still have the choice of 5 background colors (black, dark gray, medium gray, light gray and white).

The background color is most apparent in tabbed mode although you will see it in windowed mode if you pull on the sides of the window as shown below.

Click for larger view

In X4 & X5 you have a choice of a dark gray, medium gray, light gray or blue workspace with no choice of background. The background is dark gray.

[CMurd]

So it seems that X3 is the last version in which you can choose your own color. That's okay. I've gotten used to the limited colors in X7. I'll never understand why Corel started to limit the colors after X3.

I'm short of money, so I've decided to keep pulling my photos into X3 to adjust white balance and then pull them into X7 to work on them. If I work with the photos in a non-lossy format, everything will be okay.

Thank you for your help.

[Jean-Luc]

Hi CMurd,
I have seen your site. Very nice products !
It seems there is more than one problem.
What do you mean by "white balance" ?
"White balance" doesn't mean that your background should be white. It is a photographic term who means "neutral colors" (or real colors). Typically, the gray should be R, G and B of equal values (or with less difference as possible).
I have measured your image "12mm 'Seafoam' Polished Rectangle Beads". The picker tool set to 11x11 pixels reads approx RGB 184. It is very neutral but it is not "white". It is gray.

Neutral gray

picker tool gray rgb.jpg (28.09 KiB) Viewed 8997 times

If you want your background to be white, you need to put your product on an opaline glass with some light underneath (see a sample here http://www.whitneybros.com/imaginative- ... -light-box but you could make it yourself). You should also try this sort of lightbox : https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... ghtbox.jpg
If you want to be as neutral as possible, don't use the PSP's X7 White balance tool. It is useless. I don't have encountered someone who is using this tool with satisfactory results!
You should go to
-> View
-> Customize
-> Personnalize
-> Commands
-> Unused commands
-> Black and white points
and put this tool in a toolbar.
Put the middle dropper in the white (gray) area of your image. It should correct the balance to neutral. Black and white droppers should also help but not often. I'm not using them in most cases.

[CMurd]

Jean-Luc, I think you have solved my problem for me. I just tried your suggestion, and it works very nicely. However, let me make some points.

First, thank you for your compliment about my products. Unfortunately, my business is in a slump because the U.S. Postal Service gives special postal rates to Chinese eBay sellers, and they are selling high-quality beads at below-wholesale prices, and no one can compete with them. I'm still trying to find out why the post office is helping Chinese merchants and not American merchants.

The crop that you use is from a picture that was fixed up using PSP X3. The picture you see on my site is only a crop. The original picture was much larger and showed areas of a white background on either side of the beads. I don't remember exactly what I did to that picture, but I most likely used the White Balance feature on it. If I did, PSP X3 would have identified the white background and adjusted it to neutral (not white, but neutral light gray). I then would have cropped off most of the white. If the area between the beads is slightly blue in the crop you used, that's because the beads are bluish and some of the color is reflected onto the background right behind the beads.

Just because the feature is called White Balance doesn't mean that I expect it to turn light gray areas white. The fact is, the Black and White Points feature is built into the White Balance feature (under Advanced) -- but in X7, it doesn't seem to be working. However, the Black and White Points feature, by itself, DOES seem to be working in X7, and I am very grateful to you for pointing it out to me.

Photographing beads on a back-light doesn't result in very accurate pictures. A bead which looks to the eye to be opaque will appear slightly translucent when photographed on a back-light, and the customer will get the wrong impression of what the beads actually look like.

Thank you very much for your help. I have put the Black and White Points feature on my tool bar, and I will be using it from now on. My problem appears to be solved!

Before I sign off, let me say that I opened a case with Corel, but they never got back to me. Apparently, my version of X7 is out of warranty. Corel's customer support is horrid.

[brucet]

Keep in mind that White Balance can be a very 'subjective' matter. I doubt that there is a program on the market that automatically reads our minds and makes an adjustment to suit us! I no longer use Corels AfterShotPro due to 'their' White Balance issues. However even in my preferred program I need to adjust white balance to suit my goals. Memory is a marvelous tool but even our memory will often conflict with white balance settings.

As frustrating as it may seem white balance will always be an issue due to our individual perceptions of what is 'correct'.

regards

[CMurd]

Keep in mind that White Balance can be a very 'subjective' matter. I doubt that there is a program on the market that automatically reads our minds and makes an adjustment to suit us! I no longer use Corels AfterShotPro due to 'their' White Balance issues. However even in my preferred program I need to adjust white balance to suit my goals. Memory is a marvelous tool but even our memory will often conflict with white balance settings.

As frustrating as it may seem white balance will always be an issue due to our individual perceptions of what is 'correct'

Actually, I don't agree with you. White balance isn't subjective.

This is a light gray which is balanced: Red-200, Green-201, Blue-199

This isn't balanced: Red-200, Green-201, Blue-232

There's nothing subjective about that. I always use the Dropper tool to make sure the white background is a neutral shade.

The second group of colors is similar to what I often get when using White Balance in X7. White Balance in X3 would give me something like the first group of colors. However, Jean-Luc advised me to use the Black and White Points tool, and that is working perfectly.

[Jean-Luc]

Photographing beads on a back-light doesn't result in very accurate pictures. A bead which looks to the eye to be opaque will appear slightly translucent when photographed on a back-light, and the customer will get the wrong impression of what the beads actually look like.

I posted a reply, yesterday, but I don't see it.
Here what I wanted to add :
In my mind, the backlightbox should have a possibility to reduce the intensity of the light emitted. So, the background will be a little whiter but the beads will remain opaque. It needs some adjustment to find the correct setting. You may also try the white lightbox which could give you a different aspect for your beads... or not... It needs to be tested.
Best regards,
Jean-Luc

[CMurd]

I posted a reply, yesterday, but I don't see it.
Here what I wanted to add :
In my mind, the backlightbox should have a possibility to reduce the intensity of the light emitted. So, the background will be a little whiter but the beads will remain opaque. It needs some adjustment to find the correct setting. You may also try the white lightbox which could give you a different aspect for your beads... or not... It needs to be tested.
Best regards,
Jean-Luc

What I've found is that different types of beads look good when photographed in different ways. I used a light box for a while, and some beads came out great while others came out terribly. I think the same thing would be true using a back-light. Surprisingly, I discovered recently that just using two bare daylight-balanced bulbs gives good results (I used to use light from a window, but it is too diffuse). The problem for me is that I don't want to spend a long time taking photos. Positioning the beads on a white plate seems to work well enough, so I use that method for all of them. But thanks for your suggestions.

What I'm really grateful to you for is telling me about the Black and White Points tool. It is working very well. Thank you!