Understanding White Balance, Advanced Options

[CMurd]

Even after looking at the help files, I don't understand the White Balance feature when Advanced Options is clicked. I see two sets of sliding scales, both of which make changes to the image, but I don't understand the difference between them. Can someone explain the difference?

Thank you.

[LeviFiction]

Well, I'm probably wrong about this and I do apologize if I lead you wrong. This has simply been my understanding of the tool since I bought the "Official Guide" to Paint shop Pro X.

The two sets of sliders are confusing because they seem to be exactly the same, no rhyme or reason between them. The first set of sliders tells PSP what the white balance of the image should be, and PSP makes the appropriate changes to match those new values. In other words if you know you were taking pictures in direct sunlight, or under florescent lamps you know what sort of white balance the image should have as a result of where you took the image. In fact there are presets for exactly these kinds of situations. As not all images have a neutral white, black, or grey point to calculate the white balance from.

The enhance white balance sliders actually change the white balance of the image itself. This isn't about what the white balance should be based on lighting. This is about changing the actual white balance of the image.

Not quite sure how Tint works if it's adding tint or removing tint.

[CMurd]

Your explanation doesn't really clear it up, but I appreciate that you are trying to help. You say, "The enhance white balance sliders actually change the white balance of the image itself" -- but so do the sliders directly above. However, there does seem to be a little logic to what you are saying. Even so, I don't know which sliders I'm supposed to use to get the image looking the way I want.

I have noticed that the first set of sliders changes with every image, but the second set of sliders stays at whatever setting I put them at. Thus, the first set of sliders may represent the color balance of the image as it is, and the second set may be my customized settings which remains from one image to the next. Since the second set of sliders remains constant from one image to the next, that allows me to apply the same color temperature to more than one picture. I suppose that's it.

[LeviFiction]

You're right I didn't explain myself well. In fact I explained the second one completely wrong. Let me try again.

The first sliders are not meant to "change" color balance but to correct for it. You set the first sliders to match the conditions under which you took the photo. If you hover over the sliders you'll see a tooltip. "Original Temperature" and "Original Tint." So if you took the image under a blue sky the image will be cooler and you set it up that way in the first sliders.

PSP takes these readings and adjusts the image accordingly.

The second set of sliders adjust for the corrected or adjusted temperature and tint of the image. So if after the initial correct it's still on the warm side or on the cool side you can make further adjustments to the adjusted image not to the original using the second sliders.

Try using some of the presets for the tool and pay attention to how the sliders move with each new lighting condition.


Here is a quote from PaintShop Pro X3 for Photographers by Ken McMahon

The tools in the White Balance panel are used to identify the original conditions under which the photo was taken; you then use the sliders in the Enhance Color Balance panel to make further minor adjustments.

This can be a little counter-intuitive if you're not used to it because dragging the Temperature slider in the White Balance panel towards warm actually makes the image cooler, or more blue. This is because you're telling the program that the original lighting conditions were warmer than those depicted in the unadjusted image.

For example, if you set your camera's white balance for indoor use, and then go and take photos outdoors without resetting it, all of your pictures will have a blue cast. This is because daylight is much cooler (or more blue) than the artificial indoor light that you've set the camera up for.

In the White Balance dialog box, by dragging the White Balance Temperature slider towards cool, you're saying that the actual color temperature of the light this picture was taken in was much cooler than what the camera was set up for and recorded - and the blue cast is eliminated.

[CMurd]

I almost understand the quote by Ken McMahon, but I find it to be SO counter-intuitive as to be absurd. It's a kind of convoluted logic that I just can't wrap my mind around. The images that I am adjusting were taken with a camera that had the right white balance selected, so that convoluted logic doesn't even apply in my case.

Can I just use the sliders in the upper portion to change the image? Do I have to use the bottom sliders at all? If I have to use both sets in tandem, and if in order to use them I have to understand their logic, I'll just have to stick with Smart white balance. The problem is that the Smart white balance doesn't always give satisfactory results.

[LeviFiction]

There are lots of tutorials showing how to use various different commands. In fact the White Balance adjustment layer is the original white balance command that PSP used to use. You can also use Curves. And various other commands. Including one or two hidden ones. Listed below.

As for your question: Yes you can just one of the sliders you don't have to use both. As I said, the second set of sliders is for further tweaking of the image after the first sliders. You can also just use the second slider without touching the first one, but the effect might be a bit stronger if you do. I had one image where the top bar did make the image warmer at maximum, but the bottom slider made it practically orange at the maximum.

-------------
There is an unused command named "Black and White Points" another one named "Manual Color Correction" and yet another named "Automatic White Balance"

View -> Customize

Select "Unused commands" on the left list and find the appropriate command in the right list. You can drag it onto a toolbar or into the menu.

[CMurd]

If I am using just the top set of sliders, shouldn't I set the bottom set of sliders to neutral? If the two work in tandem, that would seem necessary. Neutral would seem to mean moving the sliders to the hash marks in the center; but when I put the sliders there, the picture doesn't seem very neutral.

I've noticed something strange about Smart white balance. The background in my pictures is definitely white (I photograph beads on a white plate). If the picture looks too warm, using Smart white balance fixes it. But if I then use Smart white balance again, the background turns pink. If I am using Smart white balance on a picture that is already correct, why doesn't it recognize that and make no change?

[LeviFiction]

Many think the White Balance command is lack-luster and prefer to use the other methods.

I said you can use the first slider without the second. Didn't say it would always work out well.

Again, the second sliders are used to help adjust the result of the first sliders. If they are set at neutral and the result doesn't look neutral, then the first sliders aren't correct yet just a close approximation. Tweak those settings. If it still doesn't fix, then yes the second sliders will help.

As for why the smart-balance doesn't work the second time. It could be a bug. It could be something else I can't even guess at.

[CMurd]

Thank you for your help. I'll re-read the thread when I'm less tired, and maybe I'll understand it better.

[brucet]

Comment - !
Unless you are editing a raw file is PSP actually correcting white balance or is it just pseudo white balance? Not really a comment but a question. I've always addressed white balance adjustments in raw conversion stage.

regards

[Kathy_9]

Here is a quote from PaintShop Pro X3 for Photographers by Ken McMahon

The tools in the White Balance panel are used to identify the original conditions under which the photo was taken; you then use the sliders in the Enhance Color Balance panel to make further minor adjustments.

This can be a little counter-intuitive if you're not used to it because dragging the Temperature slider in the White Balance panel towards warm actually makes the image cooler, or more blue. This is because you're telling the program that the original lighting conditions were warmer than those depicted in the unadjusted image.

I don't normally use the White Balance adjustment but I've been following this thread with interest. What I don't understand is the part that I've bolded in red above. Ken McMahon's says one thing but when I tried it I got the opposite results. I'll upload two images below. The first shows where PSP put the sliders by default (cooler than my "before" image) and the second is where I dragged the slider toward warm. Based on the above explanation I expected my adjusted image to become cooler but instead it became warmer.

It should not be this difficult to grasp. Or is it just me?

First image - click for larger view

Second Image - click for larger view

[rondo]

I think the differences in the two images you posted have to do with what point is selected in the source image as much as what you did with the sliders.

I've also found the two sets of sliders confusing, and more so in that if I select a preset from the box to match my original shooting light, the Smart Select will find a point and the correction is pretty good, but if I manually select a point that should be gray, white or black, then the results are way off- this is contrary to how many other WB correction in other programs work.

Anyway, I've gotten fairly good results with this tool, as I usually shoot on Auto WB in my camera but it doesn't always get it right.

[CMurd]

I want to go back to something I said above, and that is: the settings that you make on the 2nd set of sliders remains from one image to the next. Even if we don't completely understand the difference between the two sets of sliders, I think that's an important point. If your camera is always off in a particular way (warm or cold), then on the 2nd set of sliders, you can set a profile for your camera -- or does PSP have another way to do that?

What's frustrating for me is this: Smart white balance is often very good. I would like to be able to click the Smart White Balance box, and then click Enhanced White Balance and see what settings the program is using for Smart White Balance, but that's not what I'm being shown.

For me, there's been a solution to the problem since I started the thread. I didn't notice before that if I use Smart white balance (which is often very good, especially since the background I use for my products is always white), there is a Cooler/Warmer slider right underneath. I'm learning that that's really all I need to fix most of my photos.

[Jean-Luc]

"White balance" doesn't mean the tool corrects the white !
"White balance" is so called since the first professional camcorders. They needed a base setting ("balance") before operating. This "calibration" was made with a blank surface (like a white paper).
The name of this operation is still in use today but is now incorrect.
"White balance" means now "neutral".
The neutral measurement is made in measuring the gray values. R, G and B values must be equal not in measuring the white (but gray is a darker white...).
A gray value R100, G100 and B100 is neutral (or R128, G128, B128, etc.). I mean technically neutral.

We may prefer a warmer or cooler aspect for particular photos and our screen is perhaps not calibrated. It is another story...

The only perfect tool for the white balance correction is the "Black & White point" tool in the unused commands.
It permits to click on black, white and gray areas and to correct automatically the color cast visible in the gray.
Such tool exists in Photoshop too.

More about the subject :
http://www.whibalhost.com/_Tutorials/WhiBal/01/
and particulary (must be seen !!!):
http://www.whibalhost.com/_Tutorials/Wh ... index.html

In Europe :
http://www.digigrey.com/en_index.html

Jean-Luc

[hartpaul]

And then you may use all the tools to get a technically correct white balance and still find the final image unpleasing. It is up to you to do what you like.
Glamour shots of swimwear models may be shot late afternoon to emphasise the tan using a warmer light, as does the use of a warming filter or a gold reflector.
Forget the technical "correctness" and do what is pleasing.

In your case because of the limitations of cameras and color perception , you may find that some colors of your beads do not come across as real and you may need to change the colors of the beads alone (attempting to keep the plate white, as variations in white can be noticed more easily when you also have a comparison white.)
I rarely use the auto color balance and make color corrections using the Red Green Blue (Shift U) as it has much finer tweaking rather than sliders and for each color RGB.

Remember also that you may get the colors correct for your color monitor but your customers may not have color corrected monitors, problems with their color vision and if they are wanting a definite color may still not get the right one.
Perhaps a labelled sample set of beads that they can purchase to allow them to then order the correct colors may be the go. They then see the beads in their home situation and better judge what color they really want.