Request for a decent Noise Reduction Solution

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Arnfinn
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Request for a decent Noise Reduction Solution

Post by Arnfinn »

It has been a much requested feature since Noise Ninja was replaced by the Perfectly "Useless" Noise Removal tool in ASP 2, and I raise this topic once again because it's too important to ignore for even more years. While the Noise Ninja was far from perfect it did some ok job on most images. However, while all Corel's competitors now has a good to excellent noise removal solution, Corel is seriousely lagging behind. The main problem with the Perfectly "Useless" Noise Removal solution is that it only has options for strength and detail, and in most cases; with a decent level of noise reduction it totally destroys the details in the rest of the image.

To make a good noise reduction solution, it's important to understand the different types of noise, and where the problem is most visible.

1. Color Noise
2. Lumiance Noise
3. Banding Noise (sensor specific noise)

Noice characteristics might also be depandant on color or be more present and coarse in the shadows, while it is less to no problem in other parts of the image. A good noise solution should provide both fast and simple settings, and more advanced tweaking options if needed. Sometimes the noise is only visible in one color, often in blue sky and water, so it should be easy to reduce by color separate from other controls, and it should also be able to address the different types of noise in shadows separate from for instance midtones or highlights.

In my photography, I often take images with high contrast, where I want to keep details in the bright areas and have some details recovered with "Fill Light". This introduces in most cases a lot of coarse noise in the shadows while there's no to only fine noise in the lighter areas. On both my cameras (Canon 7D/5D II) there's also a lot of banding noise in the shadows, while it's not visible in the other parts of the image. The only tool that properly does a good job removing banding noise is Topaz DeNoise. I do have lots of different raw converters and Photoshop plugins that does a better job than ASP on this matter. Actually, even new the OnOne suite has now a very good noise reduction solution, and with it's fast and improved RAW file browsing and handling is actually the preferred solution for many of my images. The reason being ASP's poor noise handling. I do use ASP for all my sorting, deleting and rating, but without a decent noise solution it is useless for many of my images.

Regarding the banding noise I have in the deep shadows, the Perfectly "Useless" Noise Reduction actually makes that noise more visible than it is without it. This was a surprise, as it reduces most other noise, even the details I want to preserve... :?

A one-size-fits-all solution that only works with global settings isn't something that's good enough in 2015. When every competitor system and plugin is light years ahead of what we have inside ASP, I think Corel has to put some serious resources into getting something better into it's software. If the solution is to (do what Corel always does) license someone elses solution, then Topaz DeNoise should be the perfect match, and it is the only solution I have found to handle banding noise properly. But if Corel is considering to develop something themselves, use DeNoise as the model.

Something has to be done in this respect, and the sooner the better. If Corel has ambitions of being a serious competitor for raw files, a proper noise reduction solution is a must. The benefits of a decent and good noise solution could be jointly shared by both ASP and PSP...
Long time AfterShot Pro & Bibble user...
http://creativewithlight.com/
afx
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Re: Request for a decent Noise Reduction Solution

Post by afx »

What's wrong with Wavelet Denoise?

cheers
afx
Send bugs to the Monkey // AfterShot Kickstart Guide // sRGB clipping sucks and Adobe RGB is just as bad
Bibble since 2005 // W7 64 on quad Phenom // Ubuntu 14.4 on quad i7 and dualcore AMD // Images
Arnfinn
Posts: 124
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:00 pm
operating_system: Windows 8.1
System_Drive: C
32bit or 64bit: 64 Bit
motherboard: ASUSTeK Computer INC. SABERTOOTH X58 Rev 1.xx
processor: Intel Core i7 CPU 960 3.20GHz 3.20GHz
ram: 12 GB
Video Card: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 670
sound_card: High Definition Audio Device [5x]
Hard_Drive_Capacity: 12 TB
Monitor/Display Make & Model: BenQ G2400W 24,0" + Acer X203H 19,9"
Corel programs: ASP
Location: Norway

Re: Request for a decent Noise Reduction Solution

Post by Arnfinn »

It's certainly way better than the built-in solution in ASP, but for some of my images I have had better luck with other noise reduction systems oustide of ASP. Especially if I also need some microcontrast sharpening with Wavelet Sharpen or other sharpening methods with a small pixel radius. This has had the tendency to enhance some noise that should have been removed, and also in a non uniform pattern.

The main problem is that it works with global settings. For some images I haven't been able to find the optimal setting that reduces enough of the problematic noise while leaving the parts I want to keep untouched, and I loose too much detail in those areas. In those cases I haven't managed to find the correct combination for Luminance/Color and the Detail sliders. Sometimes I need most noise reduction in the blue sky or water, or in the deep shadows, while the setting that fixes this also affects the other areas too much. The workaround can be to use the filter selectively in layers, but sometimes this isn't a viable solution as the image is too complex for the region tools in ASP. I do use the plugin where I can, but it should have been possible to fine tune it more selectively for shadow/midtone/highlight & colors...

Also, I feel that Corel is who we have paid for providing us with the program. I don't feel it's just as easy to demand/complain about a plugin that's provided by a third party for free. The plugin developers in many cases does a far better job than Corel, but this doesn't take away my disappointment with Corel, that has done a below average job in so many fields so far. I hope they wake up and invest some more resources into development. Actually, they should have paid the best plugin developers for making the valuable functionality they themselves hasn't the resources or brains to develop. At least, that's my opinion...

...and for different reasons some of the plugin developers since the good old Bibble days have abandoned ship. If Corel doesn't do more to appreciate the good work done by all those brilliant individuals, there's no guarantee that plugins will continue to be developed/supported/updated in the future. If it hasn't been for many of the plugins, the progam would have been much less attractive to use. Corel shouldn't depend their best functionality on the goodwill of non-paid individuals... (No offense to the plugin developers - It's Corel's attitude that disappoints me)
Long time AfterShot Pro & Bibble user...
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rondo
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Re: Request for a decent Noise Reduction Solution

Post by rondo »

Thankfully Wavelet Denoise is now available in 64 bit as are many others, including Wavelet Sharpen.
lathspell
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Re: Request for a decent Noise Reduction Solution

Post by lathspell »

afx wrote:What's wrong with Wavelet Denoise?
If you own an older Olympus camera which already in the beginning suffers from B5's/ASP's traditional ridiculous Oly demosaicing but needs denoising because of its old sensor, WaveletDenoise isn't a big help. It creates either too smooth pictures or blotches. Plus it's cumbersome to use. And it's a third-party plugin like NN which means it could go the way of NN anytime.

Between AthenTech's Denoise prosthesis and the current state of the art there are not only miles but lightyears. No matter if free software like RawTherapee or payed software like LR or PhotoNinja - they are all running circles around ASP2's idea of what might be a helpful denoising. I for sure also want a new, better one, and my decision for purchasing any future APS update will depend on capable on-board denoising.
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