How do you organize HUGE amounts of raw footage?

[tanguero]

JPW, I understand exactly what you are trying to do and yes, Machete will do it and it's completely lossless (as it would have to be since Machete doesn't use codecs for editing, only for previewing). I needed to do it on DV tapes I had transferred to DV/AVI files and the free Machete lite (supports AVI and WMV formats only) worked perfectly.

The full Machete product ($20), which I didn't need, does a whole bunch of other formats including .MOV. The caveats are:

1. To do a preview, you have to have the proper codec installed and accessible to Machete (which can be a pain if for some reason it's not already installed), or you have to operate "blind" with timestamps only. Since Machete Lite did what I needed to, I didn't bother with this, but it sounds like the full version works on your system with the codecs you have, so go for it. Seems like a useful tool to have in the video editor's toolbox.

2. The second caveat, which I already alluded to in my first response, is that all splices and joins can only happen at keyframe points, as encoded in your video source file. For DV/AVI every frame is effectively a keyframe, but for more modern formats, they may occur only every 1-6 seconds. However, they invariably occur at scene changes as well. Machete lets you advance keyframe by keyframe in preview mode so you can see where your cut options are.

When I was researching this subject some weeks ago, Machete and VirtualDub were the two most recommended lossless trim/splice editors. VirtualDub is AVI-centric and probably doesn't handle MOV at all, so you're left with Machete (as you've discovered for yourself). I'm surprised that there aren't more options, including options for recreating keyframes at arbitrary splice points so you are not limited to existing keyframes, which I believe could be done losslessly as well (but I know of no consumer-level software that does so, even though it would be incrementally a relatively small effort).

None of the above discussion has anything whatsoever to do with VideoStudio. The reason you are getting all this conflicting information is that this is a VideoStudio forum so you are getting VS-centric responses, and VideoStudio absolutely cannot do what you want (but I think you already know this, since you wanted to do this as a pre-processing step before important into VideoStudio).

There is also confusion on Editing (spacial) vs. Trimming (temporal). Changing the visual content of what's on your screen at any point in time is indeed generally not exactly reversible (and hence lossy). Trimming (cutting and/or joining) is always reversible (lossless) in principle, certainly if done on keyframes (and I believe theoretically even at other points, though this may depend on the encoding); however, software to do it seems to be hard to come by for some reason.

The File > Save Trimmed Video feature mentioned by lata (good to know about it--hadn't noticed it) re-renders the segment (since lossless trimming is not built in to VS) so indeed you don't want to use it for your purpose as it will be lossy. (By the way, Smart rendering, as I understand it, only has to do with saving CPU cycles and hence rendering time when a project is re-rendered, no? I.e., I don't see that it would affect lossiness or output quality one way or the other ...)

[JPW]

Wow, tanguero, thanks for that comprehensive and very informative explanation. It sounds like Machete will work great for me and there is no risk of degrading the quality of the resulting clips in to VS. This will be great. Thanks again.

[skier-hughes]

A lossy format is one where compression is used to encode the video.
All mpeg files are lossy.
A compression algorithm is used to decide on what can and can't be disposed of when saving a video file.
No matter where you cut it, once you tell the programme (any programme) to save the video file, the compression algorithm takes affect and you will lose some quality.

Videostudio, when it cuts a video file on your timeline does not make a lossy cut, you can easily reverse it if you want, by using undo. VS as do all other programmes use a database of instructions telling the programme what to do with a file, cut, insert transition etc. Non of this makes any difference to the original file.

No matter what anyone says the laws of compression are, you apply compression you lose quality.

Whether that is acceptable to you, noticeable to you is up to you.

[tanguero]

Wow, tanguero, thanks for that comprehensive and very informative explanation. It sounds like Machete will work great for me and there is no risk of degrading the quality of the resulting clips in to VS. This will be great. Thanks again.

You're welcome. If you REALLY want to split the original clips, this is the way to do it losslessly.

However, since your original issue was that of organization, there is another way to do what you want (assuming you will ultimately use VideoStudio to do your editing) that has the advantage of not touching your original clips at all. It's probably best illustrated with the use of an example.

Suppose you have something called Run1.mov that is 120 seconds long and you want to split it into the start of 30 second and the end of 90 seconds. Yes, you could use Machete to create Run1-start.mov and Run1-end.mov. And you could organize by creating a folder Start for all the starts and another folder End for all your ends.

A VS alternative would be to import the full clip Run1.mov into your library, let's say one called "Full Runs." Put it on the timeline and use the Split Clip feature to split it into the 30-second start and 90-second end clips (no file has actually been split; VS has only put markers)--you can trim each clip down further or even expand them to be overlapping. Create new libraries called "Run Starts" and "Run Ends" and move (drag and drop) the start and end clips from the timeline into the respective libraries (yes, you can drag in that direction too!). The start and end markers are retained as a property of that clip in the library, which you can see in the detail view of the library, and you can add them back on the timeline in any order as if they were different clips. However, there is no way to change the name of the clip or add a virtual name or tags to help you remember what it was (they will all have the name Run1.mov), hence the suggestion to create different libraries as an organizational aid (they could all be in the same library, actually, but it may be confusing with 3 clips with the same name in the same library, differentiated only by their start and end times).

Both achieve what you want and both are lossless as far as the trimming part is concerned (until you render your final project with VS, of course, when both become lossy, though identically so). But they have different organizational implications with their respective pros and cons, so you can choose the one you prefer or that works with your project. For example, if you have 200 GB of files and you know that 95% of the content of each clip is going to be junk that you are happy to delete permanently once you are done with the project (but want to archive the originals of the "good parts"), the Machete approach lets you recover that disk space. It also lets you give more descriptive file names to each piece, which you can take advantage of in other software as well, should you wish to do something else with those clips outside of VS.

The VS approach, on the other hand, is much better for playing around with the cut points: It would be rather unwieldy with Machete if, for example, you decide later that you wished you had cut 1 second later than you did, to rejoin the pieces and cut in a different spot, but with VS it's a cinch--just drag the end of the clip and as much of the cut part as you want back comes back. Also, with the VS approach, you are not limited to keyframe points for the cuts.

There are any number of hybrid approaches as well, of course ... do your coarse cuts in Machete to get rid of true junk, and fine tune your selections in VS, for example.

[JPW]

Super cool. Doing the trimming in VS and then adding it to a library is a great suggestion and one I did test out, but for only me it became a little unwieldy. It has to do with the fact that my video editing is done on a Home Theater PC that is connected to a projector. What I can see from the display is limited and the input control is from a wireless keyboard and trackpad. This is the first project I've had in years where I wish I had a large dual-head or tri-head dedicated video editing computer, but oh well. Machete will give me the ability to do some macro-editing on another machine and use the resulting clips in VS.

One thing I did just notice was that the audio isn't coming across while using Machete. I fully suspect I must be missing a codec somewhere, but it seems weird that the MOV video seems to work fine. In my case this isn't a big deal since 98% of the footage was using a GoPro (knock-off) in a sealed case so there isn't any audio anyway. The music track will include some upbeat music with the final product and for the 2% of footage I do have that has audio I'll simply do its editing inside of VS.

In case you are curious the video below was my inspiration for pursuing this. Picture my own resulting video with much poorer skiing and mostly with my 7 and 10-year old daughter and son. Should be fun!

https://youtu.be/Fz4F2X1xSc8

[BrianCee]

So you did not read my post of March 23rd then

When I want to make a short video from a lot of footage I just put the clips in the timeline one at a time and review the footage - if there is anything in there that I want in the short version I just cut either side of it in the timeline and slide that cut piece up into a NEW library folder - NO RENDERING or actual cutting has taken place - delete the clip in the timeline saying no to any prompt to save

continue to do that until you have all the extracts in the new library pane - do not 'Save' or 'Save As' at any time - even when exiting VideoStudio

Now go "File >> New Project" - say no to any request to save

Now slide all of your extracts down into the timeline in the order you want - again no rendering has taken place

when you are satisfied with what you have NOW is the time to render out your completed extract to whatever format you want

One render only in the completed process.

[tanguero]

One thing I did just notice was that the audio isn't coming across while using Machete. I fully suspect I must be missing a codec somewhere

Yeah, as I indicated in my first post on this thread, I got frustrated with codecs too (Quicktime/JPEG in my case, i.e.,also .mov but I couldn't get video either) and got no reply from my (pre-sales) email to Machete support. Machete light worked on my old DV/AVI files without problems so I used that just fine. Ideally I would have liked to use it on the .mov files from my newer camera and I'd have bought the full-featured one in order to be able to do that (.mov and other format support), but I didn't want to install a huge codec pack just for Machete (.mov plays just fine with everything else I have, so why should I have to?) with the risk that brings with it of breaking other stuff, so I abandoned it. And seems like you're having audio problems with it.

They actually sold me with their free Lite product and I've have bought the full product but between no reply from support and glitches in the implementation details that makes it not work for me, I gave up. Send me or post an update if you figure out more on making it work in a more streamlined way.

[JPW]

They actually sold me with their free Lite product and I've have bought the full product but between no reply from support and glitches in the implementation details that makes it not work for me, I gave up. Send me or post an update if you figure out more on making it work in a more streamlined way.

Sure. I sent them an e-mail as well a couple days ago and haven't heard back. Like you, it is confusing when playback for me via MOV is fine, but in Machete all I get is video. In my particular case it isn't a big deal since almost all my footage doesn't have audio, but if I stumble across a solution or the exact codec I'll let you know.

[skier-hughes]

Unfortunately media players and media editors are different programmes and pull in codecs in different ways or are built o work with certain types of codecs and not others.
This means you can often play a file, but not edit it in a different programme, sometimes you can play a file in an editor but not edit it.
As you can play the file, you have the right codec installed, so no need to install further codecs.
You could try uninstalling the codec and then reinstalling it.
When you install a codec, depending on who made it, it will force it's importance on other codecs, so it will be top of the list to use, so if it's not the totally right codec, ie it has the right components for video but not audio, then you get problems like you are experiencing. By reinstalling the correct codec then you can make this most of the time go back to the top of the pile and all is good.
You need to find out the 4CC code of the codec, find it on your pc, remove it then download it from it's manufacturer and install again.
Of course, if it's one that the editor just doesn't like, you are stuffed.
Use a different editor that does work with it, or convert the file to a different format, but then we go back to conversion of a lossy format degrades quality.

[lata]

From the Help topics of Machete

! In the free Machete Video Editor Lite, you can edit ONLY AVI and WMV video files. Also, in the free version you cannot extract and add audio streams.

By the way JPW, what are the properties of your video files? I may be wrong but I don’t think anyone has asked.
Place a video clip on the timeline and select properties, what are they, you can make an image of that window and attach to your post.

[JPW]

From the Help topics of Machete

! In the free Machete Video Editor Lite, you can edit ONLY AVI and WMV video files. Also, in the free version you cannot extract and add audio streams.

By the way JPW, what are the properties of your video files? I may be wrong but I don’t think anyone has asked.
Place a video clip on the timeline and select properties, what are they, you can make an image of that window and attach to your post.

I'm using the full version of Machete. I wasn't sure whether you were asking about the file properties of these videos in VS or Machete so I provided screenshots of both. They may show two different files, but only the duration and file name should be different. The file format themselves are identical in the two screenshots because they were captured with the same exact settings. You'll notice in VS that the audio reflected just fine, but in Machete the audio is blank. Again, I suspect this is some kind of weird codec issue and it isn't a big deal for me since almost all of video doesn't have audio anyway (sealed GoPro knock-off).

[tanguero]

Also, in the free version you cannot extract and add audio streams.

Machete vs. Lite: The extract and add refers to a separate feature to save the sound to a different file or add in a different sound file. Even with the Lite version (which doesn't handle MOV anyway), audio absolutely is cut or spliced in along with the video (as I have done with my AVI files that needed it).

... This means you can often play a file, but not edit it in a different programme, sometimes you can play a file in an editor but not edit it. ...

Codec Issues: Of course, it not working well is another matter entirely ... It's for precisely these type of issues that I gave up on the full version of Machete (even though I really wanted to love it)--you start to fool around with codecs and things that used to work stop working. Not that I wouldn't do it if I *really* needed to, just my threshold of need will be higher. After all, VLC plays everything I want without my fooling around with codecs, as does the far-more-complex-than-Machete VideoStudio (so far ...).

I wasn't sure whether you were asking about the file properties of these videos in VS or Machete

MediaInfo: This is an aside, and I know many of you use this, but for those who don't, MediaInfo is a great program to tell you about all the properties of just about any media type, including shell integration features to display properties just by hovering over the filename in Explorer. http://mediaarea.net/en/MediaInfo

So you did not read my post of March 23rd then

Using VideoStudio Cut+Move to New Library: I suppose this comment was primarily for JPW, but I somehow missed it too when I indeed essentially repeated the solution you had already proposed as the "Machete alternative using VS"

[lata]

Hi JPW

Thanks for those properties, they look pretty similar to the video that my Canon 7D creates right down to the audio codec Little Erdian.

I would have thought that video studio would have no problems in editing those videos.
VS 8 was updated to render using H264.Mov earlier versions did not use that so would have to use another codec.

Brian has mentioned using the scissors to cut your clip into sections, then simply delete the unwanted sections/frames.
If you only need 7 minutes out of 5 hours of footage you have quite a lot of work to do.

[JPW]

If you only need 7 minutes out of 5 hours of footage you have quite a lot of work to do.

lol...yea, I've spent the last two evenings just trimming with Machete. I'm half-way there, but I'm pleased with the organization. I look forward to the more creative part of stitching everything together with music to create a dynamic resulting video. Should be fun.

[bikemike66]

If you only need 7 minutes out of 5 hours of footage you have quite a lot of work to do.

lol...yea, I've spent the last two evenings just trimming with Machete. I'm half-way there, but I'm pleased with the organization. I look forward to the more creative part of stitching everything together with music to create a dynamic resulting video. Should be fun.

I'd like to see it when you're finished. Always looking for ways to get inspired by others doing this for similar reasons (family memories, sports highlights)