Jagged titles on NTSC DVD *only* when using Batch Convert

[timothyn]

I have a weird issue I cannot figure out. I've had a similar issue in the past, but this is different.

I have a large collection of music DVDs and have ripped them to my computer (so I can watch them on my media center PC in the living room). Then, I use VStudio to create a clip per song and I place a title on the start and end because I want to be able to read the artist/song name from across the room and I want all the clips to look the same.

So, I insert the original mpg clip (from the VOB I ripped from the disc) and put a rectangle jpg band across the bottom then type in a two line title across it using Verdana font 25 pt (using the VStudio title function - not using a preset, but just picking a font and typing my own). All my projects are mpg format 16:9 widescreen. If the source is 4:3, I let it pillar box; if it's widesreen originally, I allow it to take up the whole screen.

Now, if the source clips are from my PAL format DVDs, I change the project properties to DVD PAL, 720x576 25fps 16:9 LPCM and do a whole bunch. Then I use batch convert to convert the VSP files to *.mpg files - 16:9, 720x576 25 fps... you get the idea. Likewise, if the source DVD files are from NTSC format, I change the project properties to DVD NTSC, 720x480 29.97fps 16:9 LPCM and similarly do a whole swag of clips. Then I once again use batch convert to convert the VSP files to NTSC format mpg files. I don't use smart render at any point nor do I have the smart proxy on.

Now here's where it breaks.

Batch converted PAL 720x576 projects come out perfectly with the Verdana font smooth and clear - no signs of jagged edges. If I render one VSP (using the 'Share' tab) into an mpg file, the result is also good. If I try to batch convert any DVD NTSC format VSP projects to mpg, the Verdana font is rough, jagged and very poor quality - the rest of the video/audio is fine. BUT, if I render the clip as a once-off using the EXACT same settings using the 'Share' tab, the titles are then perfect.

I've compared the properties of the files and whether I batch convert or manually render, they are identical - same resolution, frame rate, encoder, filesize etc. This issue is reproducible from any source clip in NTSC format to NTSC output. I have 242 affected projects so sample source files etc won't help so please let's not go down that road.

What am I missing here? I can't figure out why the exact same project rendered using batch convert/manually from the same settings can result in different title quality. Given I have a mountain of NTSC clips to convert, I would like to solve this soon. Having been burnt by VStudio X5 constantly crashing, I took a leap of faith on X7 and until now, it has been stable and works really well for my purposes. But this anomaly is just bizarre and is enough to put me off VStudio for good if we can't solve it. I would be overjoyed to be shown where I've made an error and to have this resolved. But not for lack of trying, this seems to be a bug in X7.

[lata]

Hi
So the problem is with rendering the NTSC files, pal files are ok.

Jagged edges is usually associated with interlacing.
Upper Field converted to Lower Field and visa versa may show jagged edges

Are you certain that the Field Order is the same for the rendered files?

The originals could of course be Frame Based (Progressive) again changing that may cause quality problems.

When you modify the Project Properties to NTSC do you then create the text, or is the text created on a Pal project that is then changed to Ntsc? (that was me thinking out loud)

I assume you are intending to burning a ntsc DVD and not convert to pal

[timothyn]

Hi
So the problem is with rendering the NTSC files, pal files are ok.

That's right - PAL is fine. It's only NTSC and only batch converted NTSC clips.

Jagged edges is usually associated with interlacing.
Upper Field converted to Lower Field and visa versa may show jagged edges

Are you certain that the Field Order is the same for the rendered files?

While I agree that could be a potential, that doesn't explain why the same VSP project renders fine when using the 'Share' tab, but goes wrong when batch convert is used.

When you modify the Project Properties to NTSC do you then create the text, or is the text created on a Pal project that is then changed to Ntsc? (that was me thinking out loud)

I assume you are intending to burning a ntsc DVD and not convert to pal

I change the project properties to NTSC before I import the swathe of source clips (top right of VSP window changes to show 720x480). I import the clips, add one to the timeline then add the text. End to end, I run the same format: source clip>project properties>rendered output format. I keep source/output the same to avoid dropped frames/stuttering etc caused by changing from 25fps to 29.97fps or viceversa. I've always assumed taking an NTSC 29.97fps source clip and rendering it as 25fps will result in less than ideal playback?

I don't burn anything - the rendered clips are simply stored on my media center PC hard drive as mpg files.

[lata]

Hi

Did you set the Project Properties to use the same interlacing as your video files.

Did you check the video files properties for Interlacing, are you using Upper or Lower Field. Importantly are they the same for the originals and final rendered files? You mention other properties but not field order?

Do you use settings Preferences – Show Messages when inserting.
Make sure this option is selected
Start a new project then add a NTSC video

You should get a message to match the project properties.

Are you able to create a short test project, ntsc, create a smart package, zip and upload to a sharing site, maybe Microsoft One Drive - Google etc.
I can download and repeat your tests.

[timothyn]

Hi Trevor,

I'll double check what you suggest, but what I have done is tried all three formats when rendering (UFF,LFF, Frame Based). The thing to remember is, if I batch convert using the EXACT same settings as a manual render, the results are different using the EXACT same VSP files and source. The only difference is how I render.

I'll re-check the items you've suggested - perhaps I have missed something, but really, there aren't too many things to miss.

I'll let you know after I've had another look with fresh eyes..

[lata]

Hi Timothyn

I don’t dispute your findings but cannot see a reason why it should happen.

A recent post rendering AVCHD to DVD Mpeg2 caused the frame order to change, certainly that was wrong, but found a workround by unchecking Do Not Convert Compliant…

I have thought of all things I would try, unless I get my hands on those NTSC files to test I don’t think I can go any further.

I will have a go at creating my own video files to see if I can replicate the problem.
Using your files would be best.

Another thought would be to set Preferences F6 Edit – Resample Quality to Best
I normally have that set .

[timothyn]

OK, so I finally figured it out. When you use the 'Share' tab to render, VS seems to retrospectively honour the rendered output settings in the project properties. In other words, if the desired output is frame-based, regardless of the VSP project properties, it renders frame based - in my novice terms, it de-interlaces the source clip into a progressive mpg file. However, when you use batch convert, VS honours the VSP file-by-file project properties in part. So, a UFF NTSC source gets kinda mashed up into what appears to be a progressive scan output, but with the unintended loss of quality I described above. To fix my workflow issue, I've had to create a project properties template (DVD-NTSC, 16:9, 29.97fps, Frame-based etc.) Then I opened each project, changed the project properties to my template, saved and did the next and so on. Batch output fixed.

So there's probably mostly a problem in the chair not the computer, but it does seem possible to me there's a small disconnect in the two ways you can render. In all of this, I also realised the output format options in batch convert are substantially limited compared to the manual share option. Knowing AVCHD looks better, it would have been nice to batch that, but I'm not sure my media center PC would play that so well (hence the obvious question: why use DVD-NTSC/PAL if you're not actually burning to disc? A: faster to render mpg to mpg, plays on the media center software reliably and available option to batch convert).

Well I hope this might help someone else one day and thanks to lata for your ideas (you were close enough for me to find the root cause). Along the way, I upgraded my Mac to Yosemite (OS-X 10.10.2) and upgraded to Fusion 7. My WIn 8.1 VM with VSP on it is still happy and flying along (VM has 8 v-cores, 8GB RAM, dual GPU). Even with smart render off, mpg to mpg clips render in less than 50% of the clip duration time. I can minimise Fusion and still use the Mac for other tasks without impacting the rendering process (still 8 GB RAM and 4 cores left for OS-X). Again, just in case someone wants to delve into virtualising their Windows machine on a Mac and still use VSP.

[lata]

Hi Timothyn

Thanks for the feedback and glad you have sorted the problem.

The golden rule would be to match the project properties with the video files being used. For Mpeg files the batch convert would use those by default.

From Preferences – Show Messages should be selected….. I mentioned this earlier.
When you add your first video to a new project the program would prompt you to match the properties.
Saving the project as a template NTSC and Pal would work equally as well.

As for Batch AVCHD that should work the same as MPEG files.
First set the Project Properties to match the video file using the Show Messages option. (start a new project Add a avchd file.)
File Batch Convert – Save as Type MPEG Transport Stream.
The properties use should reflect the Project Properties and your AVCHD video file as viewed in the lower panel.

Why use DVD-NTSC or Pal, because your original video files use these formats and you are best rendering using the original format. So yes rendering like for like will render faster than converting to another format.