VHS, Hi8, DV to Digital

Discuss anything about video editing, HD, codecs, etc......

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hab
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Re: VHS, Hi8, DV to Digital

Post by hab »

Nope, no changes made there either.

I did a System Restore & it now opens. Having this problem on the second day of using the software does make me nervous.
Have you heard of this happening to others?
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Re: VHS, Hi8, DV to Digital

Post by BrianCee »

As I said - only to those who have changed their screen magnification.
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Re: VHS, Hi8, DV to Digital

Post by hab »

How much video (720 x 480...sd) can I fit onto a single DVD? I don't want to spend hours editing, then render only to find my final product is too large.
This video was imported through fire-wire as AVI files from DV's (digital video tapes).

I do use AVCHD for HD video & this allows for a great picture & many minutes on a single DVD.
What exact settings should I use for my standard definition video? I am trying to edit & archive dozens of old DV's.
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Re: VHS, Hi8, DV to Digital

Post by canuck »

A standard 4.7GB DVD can hold about 60 minutes of video at the best quality (a bitrate of a bout 8000). By lowering the bitrate you can increae that length but you will start losing quality. At a bitrate of about 4000 you may get about 120 minutes of video on the DVD. If the quality is still watchable is a personal choice.

You can also put video on a DVD in the AVCHD format but only about 40 minutes.

Personally I always try to put the best quality video on a DVD. DVDs are cheap and why lower the VHS or avi quality even more.

Lately I have stopped creating DVDs and only create video files on a hard drive or USB. My TV or media player is able to accept and play these video directly.
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Re: VHS, Hi8, DV to Digital

Post by hab »

Quality is my goal, so 60 minutes it is, thanks!
Can I use AVCHD for standard def video? If so it will be 40 minutes.

My plan is to archive everything on a hard drive, but burn DVD's as well. I have a long road ahead. Dozens of DV's, many dozens of Hi8's & VHS's & maybe 100 VHS-C's, not to mention all the reels of super 8 & 8 mm.
Even have 3 old Beta tapes I recorded in 1985 on a Sony Beta video camera.
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Re: VHS, Hi8, DV to Digital

Post by Ken Berry »

Can I use AVCHD for standard def video? If so it will be 40 minutes.
This is potentially a little confusing since you already said in your post before last that you use AVCHD on standard DVDs and get "many minutes". We are really talking about two different things here. First, you can burn AVCHD in its original format to a standard DVD using VS. This is called a hybrid or AVCHD disc. The structure it is burned is, is exactly the same as on a Blu-Ray disc, and a hybrid disc can ONLY be played on a Blu-Ray player. VS moreover only allows a maximum bitrate for such discs of 18 Mbps, but this is pretty good. However, using it means that you can usually only squeeze about 20 minutes of AVCHD onto a single layer DVD. You can of course lower the bitrate and put more video on a hybrid disc, but lowering the bitrate lowers the end quality of the video. Only you can decide whether the end quality at the lower bitrate is acceptable...

But you can also use AVCHD as your original video when making a standard definition DVD -- BUT the AVCHD must be down-converted to standard definition mpeg-2 since the international DVD standard only accepts standard def mpeg-2 as the video that can be burnt to a DVD... This will mean that you would be going from AVCHD filmed at, say 1920 x 1080 using a high quality bitrate of 16 Mbps or up to 29 Mbps or even higher, and down-converting it to 720 x 576 (PAL) or 720 x 480 (PAL) and a maximum bitrate of 8 Mbps... So obviously there will be a significant quality loss. But again only you can decide whether that loss is acceptable or not.
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Re: VHS, Hi8, DV to Digital

Post by hab »

My earlier shooting/editing/burning was originally all in AVCHD, from a Canon digital camcorder, so straightforward.

This time I am editing/burning old DV tapes. I have moved them onto my computer via fire-wire & am in the process of editing.
Quality trumps everything else for me always, including the amount of video per disc. This applies even more-so in this case, since these standard definition videos will of course be viewed on a HDTV.
So, am I better off with;
- this..........(Non AVCHD).."A standard 4.7GB DVD can hold about 60 minutes of video at the best quality (a bitrate of a bout 8000)"
- or this.......(AVCHD).."you can usually only squeeze about 20 minutes of AVCHD onto a single layer DVD"

If AVCHD is the way to go, will VS lead me through the process properly, and can I use a double layer DVD for 40 minutes?
I would like to render the video to my hard drive & burn from there. Is that possible, & if so, what options should I use?

THANKS for all the advice so far by the way. Great help!
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Re: VHS, Hi8, DV to Digital

Post by Ken Berry »

DV/AVI is arguably the best standard def format for editing purposes. Conversion to standard DVD-compatible mpeg-2 is easy and straight-forward in Video Studio. Mind you, I am biased as I use both a standard def DV camcorder, a HDV camcorder, which also uses mini DV tapes, and even a Sony Digital 8 which I use to capture my analogue 8 mm and Hi8 tapes. The Sony uses firewire so my analogue tapes are captured in very good quality DV/AVI.

You can, however, convert the DV to AVCHD, though personally I would see little sense in doing so. Have you heard the English expression: "You can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear"? Essentially, what I am trying to say is that in video you can't improve the original quality simply by upgrading to a format which, in its native state, provides higher quality video. In other words, even if you start off with good quality DV/AVI, it is not going to get any better simply by converting it to AVCHD. I suspect you would not get any better quality than you would from converting to DV to standard def mpeg-2 using the highest quality bitrate. You might, however, want to test convert one DV clip to AVCHD in VS and then play it back on your HDTV to assess its quality. If your HDTV accepts video on USB stick drives or external hard drives, play it that way, or else plug the drive into your Blu-Ray player and test it that way.

The process in VS is much the same regardless of what output format you choose. Edit your DV then go to Share and choose AVCHD as the output format. Give the new file a name and click on Start.

If you want to burn a hybrid disc, I doubt you will have success with a dual layer DVD. Few of us here, me included, have been able to get VS to work even with a standard definition DVD, so I suspect the same would apply to a hybrid disc.

FWIW, I have given up burning hybrid discs. These days I either burn Blu-Ray discs, or more often just make AVCHD files (from high definition HDV video from one camera and high def mpeg-4 from my GoPro Hero 3), and simply store the finished videos on external hard drives which I connect to my Blu-Ray play connected via HDMI to my HDTV.
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Re: VHS, Hi8, DV to Digital

Post by hab »

OK, so we are getting closer. I will stay away from AVCHD.

For a 25 minute video, when I choose MPEG-4 (Can I use this?) I get this for SD (I assume I cannot use HD settings for SD video);
MPEG-4 Files
24 bits, 720 x 480, 29.97 fps
Frame-based
H.264 High Profile Video: 2500 Kbps
48000 Hz, 16 Bit, Stereo
MPEG AAC Audio: 160 Kbps

(Output Size 498mbs)

When I choose MPEG-2, I get this as a default;
MPEG files
24 bits, 720 x 480, 29.97 fps
Upper Field First
(DVD-NTSC), 16:9
Video data rate: Variable (Max. 8000 kbps)
Audio data rate: 384 kbps
Dolby Digital Audio, 48 KHz, 2
/0(L,R)

There are a lot of options in both. Which is optimal for SD DV tapes?


AVCHD gives this;
MPEG Transport-Stream Files
24 bits, 1920 x 1080, 29.97 fps
Upper Field First
(HDMV-NTSC), 16:9
H.264 Video
Video data rate: Variable (Max. 18000 kbps)
Audio data rate: 384 kbps
Dolby Digital Audio, 48 KHz, 2/0(L,R)
(Output size 3.24 GB)

Some show an option of MPEG optimizer. Is that useful?
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Re: VHS, Hi8, DV to Digital

Post by Ken Berry »

If you are going to make DVDs, then forget about mpeg-4. It is NOT compatible with DVDs, and if you try to burn it to DVD, then VS -- and any other editing program -- will first convert it to DVD-compatible mpeg-2. This will cause loss of quality. You are better just going straight from DV to mpeg-2.

As for the MPEG Optimizer, I have always just ignored it... and I will have to leave it to others to say whether they have ever achieved good results with it.
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Re: VHS, Hi8, DV to Digital

Post by hab »

Narrowing it down, excellent.
I assume for SD I should choose 4:3 over 16:9? (even though 16:9 came up as the default), but should I choose 30p or 60i?
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Re: VHS, Hi8, DV to Digital

Post by Ken Berry »

For the aspect ratio, it depends what the original used. For the video converted from analogue, it will almost undoubtedly be 4:3 so you would use 4:3 for that. But if your mini DV tapes were filmed using a camcorder that filmed in 16:9, then of course use that.

As for the Field Order, your DV/AVI should be Lower Field First, and I would use that -- in other words choose 60i but make sure you set it to Lower Field First since the default is Upper Field First.
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Re: VHS, Hi8, DV to Digital

Post by hab »

Thanks once again.

All ready to go now but unsure of what you mean by Field Order. The only 2 options under MPEG-2 for 720 X 480 at 4:3 are 60i & 30p.
What do you mean by..."As for the Field Order, your DV/AVI should be Lower Field First, and I would use that -- in other words choose 60i but make sure you set it to Lower Field First since the default is Upper Field First" ?
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Re: VHS, Hi8, DV to Digital

Post by Ken Berry »

You yourself posted mpeg-2 default properties a few posts above: http://forum.corel.com/EN/viewtopic.php ... 90#p304390 Note there that the Field Order is Upper Field First, and this is what you have to change to Lower Field First in order to match the existing Field Order used by your DV/AVI clips.

In a nutshell, most of the original digital video was interlaced. You will see this commonly indicated by the small letter "i" after a frame rate e.g. 50i or 60i. This essentially means that half the horizontal lines that go to make up the image are broadcast very fast followed by the second half of the lines, (and in technical terms, these lines are called fields). In other words, lines 1, 3, 5, 7, 9... and so on are broadcast first, quickly followed by lines 2, 4, 6, 8... etc. This happens so quickly the eye doesn't notice, and perceives the image as being a single solid one. For NTSC, 59.94 of these lines/fields are broadcast every second, and 50 for PAL, 29.97/25 of the first or upper numbers first, followed by the second set of lower numbers... But some video is filmed using a system where it has to broadcast the lower numbers first, followed by the upper numbers. If the original video is meant to broadcast in the latter manner, i.e. using the lower numbers first, but instead the upper numbers of its lines are broadcast first, something goes wrong with the way our eyes perceive it, and it seems to flicker or jerk instead of being smooth, or straight lines appear jagged (in video terms these are commonly called 'jaggies'!). That is why it is necessary to make sure you match the field/line order in your output video to the original field order, so the eye perceives it smoothly.

But there is another type of video in the Field Order category which with standard definition video is called Frame Based and in high def terms is call Progressive (and designated by a "p" -- such as 25/30p, or 50/60p). Essentially this means every line/field is broadcast consecutively, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and so on. The eye perceives these as usually having better, crisper quality than interlaced video. Most modern high def TVs work well with progressive video, just as they work perfectly well with interlaced video -- though progressive video, and particularly the higher rates of 50/60p, appear crisper and smoother than interlaced video.

But don't think that making your standard def video into Frame Based/Progressive is going to make it appear any smoother. It was originally interlaced and should be left that way. Just make sure you get the Field Order correct!! :wink:
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Re: VHS, Hi8, DV to Digital

Post by hab »

I did find how to change this, but I am in Canada & NTSC. So should I change it?
The default, as you say, is upper field first. Why would they default to this if it should be the opposite?
Who would ever think to change this without experts like yourselves chiming in?