VS ProX6: 'OPEN APPEND' function needed

[pgp566]

May I please come back on this? Previously posted under 'Barriers' Between Multiple Sections of Project?
What is really needed is an 'OPEN APPEND' function. In other words, instead of the OPEN command wiping everything that has has gone before, the OPEN APPEND would append a project onto the end of the existing one, while completely preserving all tracks and synchronisation between them.
This is crucial missing functionality and, after more than a year, I have found no way around it. The only workaround results in degraded video quality (due to double compression artefacts).....................

1) Every single project I have worked on over more than two years has needed to be worked on in 'sections' (or chapters). The projects need highly accurate synchronisation between multiple media tracks, sometimes as many as seven tracks.

2) Different media files need to be inserted for each 'section' or chapter, all being synchronised with the master track.

3) It is almost physically impossible (and highly risky) to work on a large project (90 mins or more) in just one humungous project file. One just _cannot_ keep track of the thing, and all of the multiple synchronisations, over such a _huge_ timeline. It's just silly to try, nor should it be necessary to try.

4) The only workaround is to save each section as a video file, and then 'add video file to timeline' with each one. The PROBLEM (and it is a big one) is that there's no such thing as a lossless video file. All of them are lossy - .m2t is the highest quality I have found but it is still lossy. The resulting video has distinctly visible double compression artefacts (intermediate lossy video file compressed again during rendering).

5) I DO NOT WANT DOUBLE COMPRESSION ARTEFACTS. Nor should I have to have them. All my videos are generated at 1080p and I want to preserve this quality in the output.

6) The simple solution is to 'Open Append' each intermediate project file, to arrive at the master project file. Why is this critical functionality missing, and why hasn't it been implemented years ago?

With thanks
Philip
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[lata]

Hi Philip

I think I understand what you are saying.

Yes I believe you are correct that editing shorter projects is much easier.
You can of course render each project to a new video file, but as you say that requires addition renders that may affect quality.

There is a process called Nesting, this where we can insert a VSP to the timeline, in the same way we insert a video file.
We can then add other VSP’s effectively building up our project. Unfortunately each VSP displays as a single clip.
Sounds easy but there are some pitfalls, you will be unable to edit the original project, VSP’s, move, rename or delete the originals, this may cause the new nested project to fail.

Nesting projects although possible is not as far as I know documented by Corel, I try to avoid nesting.

However………..

There is a work-round by creating an Instant Project of each project, the individual Instant Projects will be available from the Custom page.
Then you can choose to Add to timeline, the template will open as though a normal project, Add another to the End and you have combined two projects. They should populate the timelines as normal, each will / should be in sync’ displaying all clips.

In principle that should work, I have tested the process with samples and it seems ok, but have to admit not used with a full project.

If you do try this method I would be interested in your results.

Philip

Are you burning your video to disc?
If yes why not add each short video maybe (6 x 15min = 90 minutes) to the burner module rather than adding the full 90 minutes as one file.
I assume that each small project could be a video in its own right?

[pgp566]

Thanks very much Trevor,
I've had very little time to experiment unfortunately and I've had to divert to doing some large format printing pending resolution of this obstacle.... I'll respond in a moment, but first may I plead for a little help in getting this issue to the attention of people at Corel - people who will really take action on it:....
The inability to concatenate projects in VS is a very serious limitation. Without it, how is one supposed to work on large or complex video projects? We are not talking about image editing, we are talking about media streams which can be of any length: 60 mins, 90 mins, 2 hrs, 3 hrs, 5 hrs ... any length whatever. Do the Corel people imagine that large or complex video projects, involving accurate sychronisation of up to 7 tracks, up to 5 hrs in length, can be done in one humungous timeline? That's a truly impossible way to work.

An "Open Append" function is an absolutely critical requirement. This function would allow the concatenation of multiple sub-projects - a complete solution to the problem. It must be quite easy to implement, surely?

Other than this critical missing component, VS Pro is an excellent product and has all the functionality to produce work to an advanced level. Please, Please, may this functionality be implemented? It should never have been missing in the first place.

Trevor, to respond to you:
Instant Project: I can't find a way of converting any of my existing projects to an Instant Project. Presumably I would have to start again? Well, the last major one I did took about four weeks of work, on and off. I wouldn't commit to that without being pretty sure of the end result - and the problem is that Instant Project appears to be quite low end, for those getting started, whereas I need to be at the high end. I think I would be much safer starting again with a professional video editor, no?

Burning to disc? Yes, mostly, DVD and Blu-Ray, though I have put some clips on You Tube.

Why not add each sub-project directly to the burner module? I have tried this (thanks for your earlier suggestion) - it works, partially, except that there are flaws in the rendering - for example the overlay track appears in some kind of upscaled low resolution, with sawtooth jagged edges on slanting verticals.

Assume that each sub-project can be a video in its own right? No, unfortunately - each sub-project is a chapter / section / episode / of one overall production.

"Open Append" is all that is needed .... it exists in all serious audio / video processing software. Please feel free to check it out.

Many thanks
Philip
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[canuck]

"Open Append" is all that is needed .... it exists in all serious audio / video processing software. Please feel free to check it out.


Can you list a few of these " serious audio / video processing software" packages?

[pgp566]

Can you list a few of these " serious audio / video processing software" packages?

The invitation was to check it out. Try any one of the majors, obviously including Premiere, Final Cut, Vegas, but also including VSPro, which is supposed to be up there, and would be but for this hugely limiting oversight. It's the only one that cannot concatentate project files. Why did you ask the question? Do you not understand why large streaming projects involving disparate media sources cannot be successfully assembled and synchronised in one huge session, in one huge timeline? Do you want me to be spend further hours, in addition to the weeks of effort I've already spent in trying to find workarounds to this hugely limiting problem? If so, how will it help get concatenation of project files implemented in VSPro? If it will not help then what was the purpose of your question? Did I see your offer of help to get this missing functionality implemented?

Thanks
Philip

[Ken Berry]

The problem is that in fact VS is nowhere near being "up there" with the likes of Premiere, Vegas and the others you mentioned, and not just because of the absence of this open append function you want... Don't be fooled by the Pro included in the VS title. The program is in reality only meant to be for amateurs, no matter how talented they may be, whereas the type of project you describe is pretty clearly up at the 'prosumer'/professional end of the market. Corel used to make a more professional video editing program called Media Studio Pro, and many of us remaining here still mourn its passing when Corel dumped it from its line up several years ago. VS does indeed make a good job of most things, but its cost structure, compared to Premiers etc, shows just how far out of that league it really is when you look at how much those other packages cost by comparison...

This is not to say you don't make a valid point -- the function you want added would clearly be useful to some users. But whether Corel would be willing to spend the money to develop it for only a limited number of users is another question, and I wouldn't be holding my breath for anything to happen in this regard very soon, regardless of how much any of us might try to encourage Corel to do so...

[canuck]

Ken has pretty well answered why I asked the question. It certainly is not a "hugely limiting oversight" for most users of this software. If you are into video editing that much, should you not be using those high-end products?

[lata]

Hi

Just to comment on some of the other issues…

Adding VSP’s to the burner module is one way of burning the disc, for DVD, the process will render those to a temporary mpeg2 (Convert Title) using that to burn the disc.
We are unable to view the content/quality of that Mpeg2 before burning the disc. In addition some users do experience errors when using this approach.

If we first render the VSP to Mpeg2
Share – Mpeg2 we can better manage the render properties, we can play the resultant video to check quality.
We can add that video to the burner module, there will be no Convert Title saving time when actually burning the disc.
Other than taking the time to play the files to check quality the time taken is the same.

Instant Projects

Lets assume you have 6 short 15 minute projects, you have completed the editing.
Open each project in turn – File Export as Template will create an Instant Project
A thumbnail/template will show in the Instant Projects library – Custom page.
Do this for each project and you have 6 templates.
Right click the first and Add to beginning.
Right click second and Add to End, repeat for the rest……

Your projects will populate the timeline in order.
The process is intended for shorter projects, creating an introduction to your movie.
But it will work with longer projects.

The other option would be to render each to a new video file, I gather its that you wished to avoid

[pgp566]

Ken and Trevor,

Thank you very much. But the need to concatenate project files is not a high end requirement. Indeed it can be very low end, witness one of our fellow villagers, who frequently goes to exotic places, takes very good videos, but does not even know how to get the video files from her camcorder to her computer. So I do it for her. In 2014 she had four separate trips/adventures, which resulted in four separate projects and four separate DVDs.

Fine so far, but a couple of weeks ago she asked if she could have all 2014 videos on one DVD with title and chapters for each trip. Er........ no, not at all easily with my current video software! That's how silly this is. Now it may be possible with workarounds, lots of messing about, lots of wasted time, such as the weeks of wasted time I have already incurred. The "Open Append" would facilitate this very easily indeed.

So that's the real position: the "Open Append" requirement is actually very basic, very fundamental. It exists with _all_ multimedia editing software I have come across, including the very old Cool Edit 2000 (so good that I still use it).

We can concatenate photos in an album very easily, nothing special required. But because this is multimedia, and everything must exist in projects, the project software itself must be able to concatenate the files.

Once people realise how very limited VSPro is without this basic requirement, and what they are missing, I feel sure that everyone will want it. I again appeal for help to get this basic functionality implemented.

Trevor, thanks - I'll again dig around in 'Instant Project' to see if I can get anywhere. But Open Append would solve the whole thing with no digging around.

Thanks again
Philip

[pgp566]

I saw a message from Canuck about using 'Insert Video' at the end of the timeline to append projects, but now cannot find the message. Anyway this was interesting - of course I use 'Insert' all the time for various media, but there was no option to 'Insert Project' and I assumed it was not possible.... but using 'Insert Video' it does allow for the insertion of a Project! I was keen to try it! I see that it 'flattens' the tracks into the primary track, but no apparent problem. I assembled a complete project consisting of 10 chapters. It worked OK. I then rendered it (took a long time).

Firstly the compression artefacts are gone! (because I was not using intermediate .m2t files but was appending original VSP files).

It looked good on first glance, but then I saw that the Overlay tracks are not rendered properly, with very coarse low-res 'jaggies' - the result looked very similar to placing the VSP files directly in the burner. Audio and Titles appeared OK, though I did not check in great detail.

The rendering problem in the overlay tracks is sufficiently bad that it's marginally preferable to generate and append compressed .m2t files, my original method (complete with double compression artefacts). So I wonder why the Overlay tracks are not rendered properly when appending a project in this way? A clue may be in the way that the project file is immediately flattened.

As it stands this is not a viable append method, but I will also experiment with the Instant Project idea put forward by Trevor ... as soon as I get a little time.

Thanks again
Philip