PSP file format, and the difference between 32 and 64

[CMurd]

It occurred to me recently that there might be advantages to using the PSP file format. I thought that if I used the .psp or .pspimage file format, it might save my undo levels with the file. However, I just tested it out and it doesn't work. In other words, once I close and then reopen a PSP file, I can't undo anything. So if the PSP file format doesn't have that advantage, what advantages does it have? Why should I use it instead of, say, the PNG format?

I'm also curious about the difference between the 32-bit and 64-bit versions of the program. I have a new 64-bit computer, so does that mean I should always use the 64-bit version of X7, or can I use either? If I find a bug in the 64-bit version, is there a chance that it won't be in the 32-bit version? Will the 32-bit version be slower? Will it be more or less stable? I'm not familiar enough with computer architecture to know the answers to these questions.

Thanks.

[hartpaul]

Answering from last to first. The 32 bit version is kept because a lot of older plugins won't work with the 64 bit version. The 64 bit version is supposed to be faster in intensive operations but you may not notice it. Do some experiments in what you do most often and see if there is any significant difference.

Saving as a .psp file saves and keeps layers and transparency, also selections saved in Alpha channels and possibly a bit more. png just saves saves the merged image and transparency.

About saving the undo levels - yes that is a problem, but you can save all the steps you have done as a script - first as a quickscript from your History palette, then convert that to a more permanent script using the Edit Script feature. You can run that script in interactive mode so that you can change some settings in the dialog boxes that come up.
You can also edit that script to change some of the settings and save them.
So there is a partial work around.

[CMurd]

Thank you for all the useful information.

The script sounds like a lot of work. I'm really surprised that Corel hasn't come up with a file format that has all the edit layers in it so that it can be undone. But then, PSP is a program that they bought, so they didn't build it from the ground up. Do they have that undo capability in the file format used in CorelDraw?

Same thing with WordPerfect: I've been waiting for Novell, and then Corel, to give us more than 9 document windows for twenty years. It'll never happen.

[Forriner]

PSP has adjustment layers that you can change as often as you want, leaving the background layer untouched. You can edit copies of the background layer, use masks etc. If you save as .pspimage.

Saving the undo history is click, shift-click, ctrl-click to select the steps you want to save, and 'save quick script', then renaming it so it doesn't get overwritten by the next save. Yes, it's not automatic or voice command but 'a lot of work', nah.

You might want to download a trial version and experiment with everything.

[CMurd]

PSP has adjustment layers that you can change as often as you want, leaving the background layer untouched. You can edit copies of the background layer, use masks etc. If you save as .pspimage.

Saving the undo history is click, shift-click, ctrl-click to select the steps you want to save, and 'save quick script', then renaming it so it doesn't get overwritten by the next save. Yes, it's not automatic or voice command but 'a lot of work', nah.

You might want to download a trial version and experiment with everything.

I already own the program.

I looked in the help files and didn't find an answer, so I have to ask: What do I click on, shift-click on, and then ctrl-click on?

You do understand what I'm talking about: I don't want to save a generic undo history that would be applied to all files. Each picture has its own actions which I would like to be able to undo at a later date if I need to. What that means is that I would have to save a script for each image file.

Frankly, it's hard to see how a script would work for even one picture. If I crop the image, and then remove some marks from the image with the scratch-removal tool, and then adjust the hue by -5%, and then reduce the color saturation by 10%, and then shrink the picture by 38%, and then sharpen it -- how can any script undo those actions if the original image isn't saved? It seems to me that the undo history (along with multiple shots of the image) has to be embedded in the image file for such a thing to work.

[brucet]

just a comment. Many of my files are made up of many layers. Each layer having many many actions applied to them. I dare not think about how many actions would be saved if it was possible to do so. Then finding which layer and where to undo an action would give me more grey hairs.
Simple answer for me is to create a layer for certain actions. Naming that layer for those actions. Simple undo is simply to go to that layer and attack it!
Yes there will be some actions that this won't work for but keeping track of every action??? Wow that will be some script.

regards

https://www.flickr.com/photos/126753097@N02/

[CMurd]

just a comment. Many of my files are made up of many layers. Each layer having many many actions applied to them. I dare not think about how many actions would be saved if it was possible to do so. Then finding which layer and where to undo an action would give me more grey hairs.
Simple answer for me is to create a layer for certain actions. Naming that layer for those actions. Simple undo is simply to go to that layer and attack it!
Yes there will be some actions that this won't work for but keeping track of every action??? Wow that will be some script.

I think I'm beginning to understand. If I create a new layer and then shift the hue 5%, then if I decide later that I don't want that hue shift, I can just delete the layer. However, even that sounds like a lot of work -- i.e., creating a new layer for every change in the image. I'm not sure that my images are important enough to take so many steps.

Do layers work with resizing? The last thing I do after making multiple changes is to resize the entire image. Once I've resized it, can I undo a step that I made before doing that?

[brucet]

You don't 'have' to create a new layer for each action. I would suggest grouping actions. Keep in mind you also have 'Adjustment' layers you can use.
In 'Image'Resize' you will see an option to 'resize all layers'.

regards

[Kathy_9]

I'm not sure I understand your questions but I'll take a stab at answering them. My comments below in blue.

Do layers work with resizing? If you have multiple layers and resize the image, all layers are resized. The last thing I do after making multiple changes is to resize the entire image. Once I've resized it, can I undo a step that I made before doing that? Yes, but you would have to first undo the resizing and then undo that step before it. Undo and Redo work in sequential order.

[LeviFiction]

I hope you're not saving over your original. The PSP format is useful for maintaining the current structure of your image (layers and all) as well as for not overwriting your original.

Hope this doesn't add confusion to what everyone else is saying. If it does I apologize ahead of time.

The history of an image is kind of interesting. It's a combo of image snapshots and script settings. So if you undo a single step out of the whole history, it first undoes everything by reinstating a specific snapshot, then it uses the recorded script settings to reapply the individual tools and effects. So, essentially, the fact that it can redo those steps shows just how much use a script is for this.

It's hacky, it's inelegant, but here is essentially how you would use a script with an image to maintain the Undo history.

1) Open Image

2) Save image as PSPImage format

3) Make edits

4) On the History palette (if you don't have it open you'll need to open it) Click the very first Undo step in the list (top).

5) SHIFT - Click on the last undo step in the list (bottom)

6) Right-click - Save to Script

7) Give script the same name as your image.

Close image, do not save changes. Or save changes with a new name.
------------------
To get your undo history back.

1) Open unedited PSPImage file

2) Run script of the same name as the image.

3) History palette should now show the appropriate Undo history. And all changes should be made to the image.

--------------
Final note, you can undo individual steps within the history palette without undoing everything before it.

If you Ctrl + Click on the "eye" symbol on the undo step you want to undo, it will undo that step and redo every step after it automatically.

[brucet]

I don't think PSP is much different to any other program. Your work flow habits are just as important as the tools available to you. As LeviFiction points out. Always work with copies of the original file. Also the first thing I do is 'Duplicate' the original layer.

In my work flow I open a file. Duplicate the layer then save as a PSPImage file giving it a name addition of 'mod01'. (ie funnynamemod01.pspimage). Then every so often I do a 'save as' with a name change of funnynamemod02.pspimage. That way I can always do a back track and can find my latest version.

Keep at it. There are work arounds for almost everything. Sometimes what seems obvious to the folks at Corel doesn't make sense to us. Sometimes what makes sense to us doesn't make sense to Corel. Sometime what makes sense to me doesn't make sense to other users. Am I making any sense? Oh dear I'm waffling again.

regards

[hartpaul]

Frankly, it's hard to see how a script would work for even one picture. If I crop the image, and then remove some marks from the image with the scratch-removal tool, and then adjust the hue by -5%, and then reduce the color saturation by 10%, and then shrink the picture by 38%, and then sharpen it -- how can any script undo those actions if the original image isn't saved? It seems to me that the undo history (along with multiple shots of the image) has to be embedded in the image file for such a thing to work.

I have tested this before and you can do the same. You have the program, experiment and test to see what its limitations are and find work arounds.
You can:
1. Crop an image
2. Remove some marks with scratch removal tool
3. adjust hue -5%??? (change hue??)
4. reduce color saturation by 10%
5. Resize picture by 38%
6. Sharpen the image.
and save that as a script which can be applied to any other image.
However it will crop in the same position, try to remove scratches in the same position and do all the other things. The crop will probably be unsatisfactory as it is usually unique to each image.
If you save the reduced size image and then later reload that image and even with a script, it will not bring back the quality of that original as you have thrown pixels away when you resized and lost those permanently when you saved it.
That is why you never work on an original image , only on copies. That way if you really want to take an image back to its original appearance, you just reload a copy of the original image (and if you have the script saved and identified for that image you can apply it again and while it is still there undo as much as you like.

[CMurd]

I truly appreciate everyone's help, but I think that the solutions are too much trouble. I am photographing products, so these are not critical pictures. I just have to be careful to do them correctly the first time I work on them.

My products are beads that come in a multitude of colors. I always do a Save As before working on the image. The adjustments that I make to each image are unique, so no universal script would work.

Hartpaul, why does it surprise you that I change the hue? The hue adjustment is in the hue/saturation/lightness tool. Perhaps the increments I am seeing in that tool are not percentages, so I may have gotten that wrong. What I do is this: I'll pull the picture of the beads onto the screen, and then compare the real beads to the picture. If the color in the picture is off, I'll do a slight adjustment of the hue to make it right. Of course, I haven't calibrated my monitor, but it still makes me feel good to see that the colors match.

I'm sure you already know this, but I'll say it anyway: Camera manufacturers purposely distort the colors that their cameras produce in order make the resulting pictures more pleasing. For example, aqua will be skewed towards blue to make skies look blue. But that results in inaccurate product photos -- and with a product like beads, in which the color is important, that's a problem.

Here's my site. The pictures won't impress anyone, but they are still better than my competitors' pictures: www.purebeads.com

[hartpaul]

Cmurd: Hartpaul, why does it surprise you that I change the hue?

My ??? were to the units of percentage, not to the change in hue. (it goes from -180 to +180 and not % )

Seeing what you are doing gives a lot more perspective on your problems.

Perhaps you should be using a setup including tripod which does not change from one take to the next. Also do you do a custom white balance in camera.
I have found in many cases that taking a little more trouble and time in shooting reduces the amount of post processing necessary.

Re a universal script, you could still use a script with the common features but apply it in interactive mode.

You first do the unique actions like cropping, removing blemishes etc, then apply the script with all the adjustments chosen (perhaps setting up adjustment layers), but leaving them all neutral ie. Select the Hue Saturation and Lightness dialog box but don't change the saturation etc You finish with a script which brings up all the functions you use but does not change the image.

Then as you run that script each adjustment dialog comes up and you can apply the change as required or not and continue to the next adjustment.
This would at least save the Adjust > Hue and Saturation > Hue Saturation and Lightness - or alternately using the shortcut keys Shift H. (I hate having to search or shortcut keys that are far apart, which requires my head to bob up and down from screen to keyboard).
By using the interactive script, the adjustment dialog box comes up, you make the changes and only have to press the Enter key to accept and move onto the next adjustment. ( I can quickly do a lot of images with my left hand poised over the Enter key, index finger moving between shift and Control, and little finger near the Alt key to quickly adjust the brush size)

[CMurd]

Hartpaul, my original reason for inquiring was because I recently decided to start including what I call super-close-up crops so my customers can see the details of the beads. A super-close-up is actually a crop from the original file before it has been reduced, something I can now do because my new camera produces 20 MP images (my last camera produced 7 MP images, which were not big enough to get good close-ups). It occurred to me that if I had the ability to re-open all the old "master" files (some stored as PNGs and some as JPGs) that I could do super-close-ups for beads I had already posted. But of course, neither of those file formats save undo steps that would allow me to access the image before I shrank it. That's what got me interested in using the .psp format. But now I know that the .psp format doesn't do that either. I do have the original images that I took of the beads, but I don't want to redo all those pictures from scratch, especially since I don't remember the adjustments I made to each image.

I don't want to deal with a tripod. Using a tripod would allow me to reduce images a consistent amount, but otherwise it would just cause more work. My hand-shake isn't bad, so pictures are not coming out blurry. I simply push back my keyboard, turn on the lights on either side of my keyboard, and start snapping -- I don't want to have to move a tripod into place. Some day I may get one.

No script would work for what I'm doing since I don't take the same steps on each photo, but thanks for your suggestion.

==============

Oh, by the way. I have found my own work-around. I am storing the master file for each photo in 2 sizes: full size and reduced size. That way, if I decide I need to make additional adjustments to the image, or if I need full-size crops, I at least have the image in its full size. Thus, if the image name is XXX, I am saving two files: XXX-full.png and XXX-scale.png. If I ever start to use layers, I'll use the .psp format.