Corel and psd files

[photodrawken]

Well, although the embedded preview can't be altered and saved without generating a new preview from the underlying layers, a little research answers the question of what PSPX7 is doing with 16-bit PSD files.

Just out of curiosity I decided to go back to the original psd file, load it into Photoshop (where it displays both layers) and do some fiddling around. Results:

1) save file as psd without "maximum compatibility" setting - X7 loads file but all image information is gone. All I get is a blank white layer.

2) adjust opacity to see what effect this has. Save file as psd with maximum compatibility and load with X7. Get a single layer with the same image as if I had flattened the original file in Photoshop.

3) reset opacity, create a layer mask and save as psd with maximum compatibility. Load with X7. Get a single layer with the same image as if I had flattened the original file in Photoshop.

From the Adobe Photoshop Help file:

Maximize compatibility for PSD and PSB files

If you work with PSD and PSB files in older versions of Photoshop or applications that don’t support layers, you can add a flattened version of the image to the saved file.

Note:

If you save an image in an earlier version of Photoshop, features that version doesn’t support are discarded.

1.Choose Edit > Preferences > File Handling (Windows) or Photoshop > Preferences > File Handling (Mac OS).

2.From the Maximize PSD and PSB File Compatibility menu, choose any of the following:

Always
Saves a composite (flattened) image along with the layers of your document.

Ask
Asks whether to maximize compatibility when you save.

Never
Saves only a layered image.

Your results match what Adobe says will happen when you open the PSD file in an application (PSPX7) that doesn't support layers.

It seems pretty clear that X7 just flattens the image when it loads it.

Your conclusion is completely wrong. What you're seeing in X7 is what I suspected -- X7 is merely displaying the embedded preview. It's not in any way flattening the PSD file.

[MikeFromMesa]

Your results match what Adobe says will happen when you open the PSD file in an application (PSPX7) that doesn't support layers.

As I said originally I don't know what is actually happening. But you are writing about software that does not understand layers. Clearly X7 does understand layers and, in fact, they understand Photoshop layers.

This entire problem disappears if the psd files are saved at 8 bit color depth and only appears at 16 bit color depth. If X7 can correctly open the 8 bit files they clearly understand layers so I guess I don't see how your post applies in this case. But, as I will say again, I don't know what is going on in Corel's code so I commented using the behavior as a guide.

The opened 16 bit files appear as they would if they were flattened. Perhaps you are right and they are not "flattened", but I was not using older versions of Photoshop. As to the settings of the Preferences on my system, both are set to Ask and, each time I save a file, I choose Maximum Compatibility. If I choose anything else X7 cannot retrieve any information from the image when saved at 16 bit color depth but has no problem at 8 bit depth.

[photodrawken]

This entire problem disappears if the psd files are saved at 8 bit color depth and only appears at 16 bit color depth. If X7 can correctly open the 8 bit files they clearly understand layers so I guess I don't see how your post applies in this case.

Simple -- X7 doesn't support reading 16-bit layers in PSD files. Whether or not X7 "understands" layers in other cases doesn't matter. When opening a 16-bit/layer PSD file created by Photoshop, Corel chose to not have X7 attempt to read and use the actual layers but instead to merely show the embedded preview. In other words, in those cases Corel chose to have X7 act as an application that does not support layers. That's certainly the cheapest option available for handling those PSD files.

Of course, the point I've made doesn't change anything about the problem with 16-bit/layer PSD files, but it's always good to know how reality works....

[MikeFromMesa]

Simple -- X7 doesn't support reading 16-bit layers in PSD files. Whether or not X7 "understands" layers in other cases doesn't matter. When opening a 16-bit/layer PSD file created by Photoshop, Corel chose to not have X7 attempt to read and use the actual layers but instead to merely show the embedded preview. In other words, in those cases Corel chose to have X7 act as an application that does not support layers. That's certainly the cheapest option available for handling those PSD files.

Of course, the point I've made doesn't change anything about the problem with 16-bit/layer PSD files, but it's always good to know how reality works....

Perhaps you are right. I don't know what the problem really is, but no one in support ever said that they did not support 16 bit psd files. In any case Corel support seems to need some organization. Today I got both an email and a PM from support. The email came from the tech I had been working with and contained this comment:

we will take this into account for further improvement on PSD file support. This case will now be closed.

indicating that they are done with this whole thing. But the PM came from a completely different person in support who sounded like second level support. That PM told me that there should not be this problem, that Corel supported multi-layer psd files (and not saying anything about 8 or 16 bit differences) and asking me (again) for links to the files and a promise to look into this whole business.

I know support is a tough business but they do not seem very well organized. If Corel just doesn't support 16 bit psd files it would have saved everyone quite a bit of trouble to have just said so 10 days ago.

[photodrawken]

I know support is a tough business but they do not seem very well organized. If Corel just doesn't support 16 bit psd files it would have saved everyone quite a bit of trouble to have just said so 10 days ago.

I agree. At worst it's deceptive advertising to claim it can open PSD files and not mention the disclaimer that it only works with 8-bit files. At best it's a ... creative ... way to interpret the word "compatible".

Corel's tech support is a real piece of work, but it's good that you've provided them with samples of the problem files.

[df]

It's too bad someone versed in plug-in creation couldn't make a PSD import plug-in.

[MikeFromMesa]

It's too bad someone versed in plug-in creation couldn't make a PSD import plug-in.

What a clever idea!

Photoshop actually provides hooks that allows someone to choose a replacement for ACR, their raw converter. You can buy other software to use as a front-end to convert raw files into the format used in Photoshop. I used to think that no one would do that until I found out that PhotoNinja can be used as an ACR replacement and gave it a try. It works very well indeed, especially because PhotoNinja is a first class raw converter. Integrates with Photoshop almost seamlessly as both a front end ACR replacement and a plugin.

It would be nice if someone would do that for PaintShop Pro although the common PSP customer may not be interested in buying another piece of software to use PSP. Still, a plugin sounds like a wonderful idea.

[trueblue]

I made a point that PSP did open PS files, not realising that they were only 8bit. I did try with 16bit and you are correct, it merges all layers when opening the .PSD in PaintShop Pro. I would like to know why it can't open 16bit? It's a bit cheeky to say PS files are compatible with PSP, but in one way, they are......as said above, only 8bit.

[MikeFromMesa]

I made a point that PSP did open PS files, not realising that they were only 8bit. I did try with 16bit and you are correct, it merges all layers when opening the .PSD in PaintShop Pro. I would like to know why it can't open 16bit? It's a bit cheeky to say PS files are compatible with PSP, but in one way, they are......as said above, only 8bit.

I pretty much only work at 16 bit color depth so I had never tried psd files at 8 bit depth. It was not until someone on the thread mentioned it that I even thought about trying.

The response I got from what I think is one of their engineers (as compared to their first-line support folks) is that the problem should not be happening and he was going to look into it. We will see what we will see ... I really like X7 but I am not so happy with Corel support. I am only glad I did not have to pay to be told, 11 days after submitting the problem, that they will consider fixing it sometime.

[hartpaul]

Are we placing the cart before the horse here?
We have an $80-100 program that can partially read the native files (psd); that come from an $800-1000 program so long as they are 8 bit and not 16 bit.
BUT when you try and drop a native pSP file (pspimage) I get the error message "Could not complete your request because it is not the right kind of document."

Why do we expect more from the economical cheaper program. Why is PSP being downgraded and called buggy in this case because it can't be fully compatible with the other programs files.
If PSP was priced at $800 + I would expect it to do everything and not have bugs.

[photodrawken]

Why do we expect more from the economical cheaper program. Why is PSP being downgraded and called buggy in this case because it can't be fully compatible with the other programs files.
If PSP was priced at $800 + I would expect it to do everything and not have bugs.

At least in my responses here, I've never said that this problem is a X7 bug. I just pointed out what it's really doing with 16-bit PSD files.

Insofar as denigrating PSP is concerned, I can do that because the 59 euro PhotoLine can handle those 16-bit PSD files with aplomb. That's why I can "expect more from the economical cheaper program". The times, they are a'changing -- the insanely expensive Photoshop is no longer the only game in town when it comes to outstanding image editing.

Users who actually purchased X7 have a legitimate gripe, IMO, if the PSP advertising made a blanket statement about being "compatible" with PSD files without including a disclaimer about 8-bit only.

[MikeFromMesa]

Are we placing the cart before the horse here?
We have an $80-100 program that can partially read the native files (psd); that come from an $800-1000 program so long as they are 8 bit and not 16 bit.
BUT when you try and drop a native pSP file (pspimage) I get the error message "Could not complete your request because it is not the right kind of document."

Why do we expect more from the economical cheaper program. Why is PSP being downgraded and called buggy in this case because it can't be fully compatible with the other programs files.
If PSP was priced at $800 + I would expect it to do everything and not have bugs.

I really like PSP. I am relatively new to it and had some trouble at the beginning because some of its adjustments are not "real time" in that you have to make the adjustment and then wait for it to show you what you will get rather than have it constantly adjust as you push a slider (as with Photoshop). But I have done some comparisons and found that I can make photos look just as good, perhaps better, using X7 as with PS CS5.1. What was the biggest surprise to me is that when I adjust a photo in CaptureOne (my workflow software), send it to X7, use the included version of Perfectly Clear, save it as a jpg and do the same with PS I cannot see the difference. I have come to really like X7.

Having said that it is clear that Photoshop is the standard and developed the standard file format in psd. Pretty much all pixel level photo editing software open psd files and none open pspimage files except other Corel products. Corel says that it is compatible with psd image files and I have never seen any statement that this compatibility is limited to 8 bit files. If they claim psd compatibility I expect them to have psd compatibility. Had they said they were only compatible with the 8 bit variety than I would not have filed the bug report nor posted about it on this forum.

In fact, of course, Corel does support 16 bit psd files. If I open a single layer 16 bit psd file in X7 it opens correctly, and in 16 bits. It is only multiple layer 16 bit psd files that X7 is having trouble with and, while discussing this with Corel support, I was constantly told that Corel supported psd files and no comment was made that this applied only to the 8 bit flavor. And, at its base, I am not sure that there really is such a restriction because I got a PM from someone at Corel support with the comment: The issue you mentioned should not be existed.. He did not say it existed for 16 bit files, he said it should not exist.

As for bugs, I have never mentioned any bug issue with Corel's software except this issue. All software has bugs. All commercial software is so logically complex that with so many possible user paths through it that it cannot all be tested. During my time in the software industry before I retired I found that the average coverage rate for tested software was somewhere in the 40% range and the highest I ever saw was about 91% in spite of repeated efforts to increase that. So there will always be bugs. I have had PSP crash on me, freeze on me and perform strangely but I have not complained about that because that is expected. Photoshop does the same (although, perhaps, not as often). Hence service packs from both companies. It is the claimed compatibility that is an issue for me.

None of that means that I don't like the software (I do) and from the industry's point of view, if people don't raise these issues, they will probably never know of some of them and they will never get fixed. It may sound like I am whining and complaining but, believe it or not, I am trying to help them by calling attention to this issue so they can address it.

[MikeFromMesa]

While I believe that this issue has been covered in depth and identified I wanted to let people know that I received this message, as a PM, from Corel support in Taipei (I did not know there was a support organization in China).

Thank you for your detail information regarding to PSD format issue and I can duplicate it here. I can confirm the point you mentioned about 16bit and 8bit of color depth is the key point. I will bring this issue back to my team for investigating immediately. I expect we can resolve this issue into SP1 that will coming in Q4 of 2014. Thank you for your helping.

Given that the problem should disappear later this year and I thought that was worth mentioning. What is a bit surprising is that it appears that Corel technical support did not even know about this problem while their Customer Support organization was telling me it was normal functionality.

This problem identification and expected resolution is all due to the effort of the people on this forum. Thank you all!

[Tadjio]

Corel's development team is based in Taiwan, for both PSP and ASP.
Joseph Lin is the Product (Development) Manager.
IHTH

[georgewashingtonII]

Playing with trial version of PSP7.. slick program, lots of capabilities, but not gonna work for me I guess. I have tons of .psd files, each of which has up to 100 layers. Thought PSP7 would open them and allow the normal manipulations of individual layers, but now I see this is not the case. Too bad. Going back to photoshop.