Corel and psd files

[LindaSue]

The layers are now intact in both versions of PSP even when I use the default sRBG color mode in PS. They are also intact when I choose "Adobe RGB". I think I might know what caused the problem earlier. I had switched the image setting from 8bit to 16bit. If I use 16bit, PSP8 can't open the image and X7 flattens it.

[Forriner]

I find that strange, but I'm no expert in colour management. What works works, no?

For all of us, thanks for the effort, LindaSue.

[MikeFromMesa]

The layers are now intact in both versions of PSP even when I use the default sRBG color mode in PS. They are also intact when I choose "Adobe RGB". I think I might know what caused the problem earlier. I had switched the image setting from 8bit to 16bit. If I use 16bit, PSP8 can't open the image and X7 flattens it.

This entire sequence of comments interested me and I loaded the 2 layer psd file into Photoshop, changed the bit depth to 8 bits and re-saved it. Then I loaded it into X7 and both layers showed up. It is a bit early to make any generalizations but it appears, from this small experiment, that the problem may have to do with the bit depth.

Perhaps X7 can open multi-layer files properly if they have a bit depth of 8 bits but not 16 bits. Perhaps. I will do some more testing. Still I have to wonder at the response from Customer Support that just said that flattening the file was the standard procedure. I will do some more testing and update after I see what is what. Thanks for this.

[photodrawken]

I don't have PS or PSP X7, but FWIW I did an experiment with two PSDs created by PhotoLine and then opened in PSP X6. I think LindaSue is right about the bit depth being the determining factor.

I used two 8-bit images, pasting one into the other as a layer. When I saved the result as a PSD file, PSP X6 opened the image without problems as a two layered image:

Then I changed each layer in PL to 16-bit and saved the PSD. When I opened the image in PSP X6, something truly bizarre happened: X6 opened two separate "PSD" images, one for each original layer, and the individual images were uselessly distorted:

Blackhawks Ice Crew 07 16-bit 1.png (96.47 KiB) Viewed 6371 times

[photodrawken]

Following up on my previous post (because 3 attachments are the maximum in this forum), when the 16-bit PSD is opened in PL, the layers are as expected (including the embedded thumbnail):

psd 16-bit layers.png (21.86 KiB) Viewed 6367 times

[MikeFromMesa]

I have been doing some additional testing using Photoshop CS5.1, Photoshop CC 2014, OnOne Photo Suite and X7. My previous experiments all showed that X7 would not open a psd file created by either Photoshop version or OnOne properly - in all cases the layers were merged when opened. But, since I do all of my work in 16 bits, I decided I needed to do some additional testing at 8 bits.

1) Opened the 16 bit psd file created by Photoshop CS5.1 in Photoshop CS5.1, changed bit depth to 8 bits and re-saved it. Opened it in X7 - got both layers. Yeah!

2) Opened the 16 bit psd file created by Photoshop CC 2014 in Photoshop CC 2014, changed bit depth to 8 bits and re-saved it. Opened it in X7 - got both layers. Yeah!

3) Opened the 16 bit psd file created by OnOne in OnOne as an 8 bit file (I could not find any way to convert the bit depth in OnOne once a file was loaded. It had to be done when the file was opened), re-saved it. Opened it in X7 - got both layers. Yeah!

4) Took the file from (1), opened it in X7, changed the bit depth to 16 bits and re-saved it. Opened it in Photoshop, got both layers but found the image with only 8 bit depth. What?

5) Opened 2 new files in Photoshop as 16 bit images, converted them to 8 bit, copied one image as second layer to other image and saved them. Opened in X7 - got both layers. Yeah!

6) Opened 2 new files in Photoshop as 8 bit images, copied one image as second layer to other image and saved the 2 layer file in psd format. Opened in X7 - got both layers. Yeah!

All files above were saved with what Photoshop refers to as "Maximum Compatibility" meaning, I suppose, compatible with older versions of Photoshop. When I had tried this test without the "Maximum Compatibility" setting X7 opened the file but all the information was gone. All I got was a single white layer, so I decided to try this whole thing at 8 bits.

7) Opened 2 new files in Photoshop as 8 bit images, copied one image as second layer to other image and save the 2 layer file in psd format without "Maximum Compatibility" setting. Opened in X7 - got both layers. Yeah!

It seems pretty conclusive that the issue is a bit depth issue. Corel can properly open a multi-layer file created by either Photoshop or OnOne, but only if it is saved as 8 bits. If it is saved at a higher bit depth (I did not try 32 bits) X7 cannot properly open it. Nice to know, but disappointing since I do all of my work at 16 bits.

I want to think everyone who poked at this problem because I probably would not have thought about a lower bit depth myself. It is a bit puzzling since X7 is a 16 bit editor so I don't know why it cannot properly open Photoshop 16 bit multi-layer images. Corel support specifically told me that when they opened by 16 bit 2 layer file in CorelDRAW, which they said was completely compatible with Photoshop psd format (meaning that X7 is not?) it also opened as a single layer. Still, knowing is better.

Thanks again.

[Tadjio]

I have been doing some additional testing using Photoshop CS5.1, Photoshop CC 2014, OnOne Photo Suite and X7.7)

Opened 2 new files in Photoshop as 8 bit images, copied one image as second layer to other image and save the 2 layer file in psd format without "Maximum Compatibility" setting. Opened in X7 - got both layers. Yeah!

It seems pretty conclusive that the issue is a bit depth issue. Corel can properly open a multi-layer file created by either Photoshop or OnOne, but only if it is saved as 8 bits. If it is saved at a higher bit depth (I did not try 32 bits) X7 cannot properly open it. Nice to know, but disappointing since I do all of my work at 16 bits.

I want to think everyone who poked at this problem because I probably would not have thought about a lower bit depth myself. It is a bit puzzling since X7 is a 16 bit editor so I don't know why it cannot properly open Photoshop 16 bit multi-layer images. Corel support specifically told me that when they opened by 16 bit 2 layer file in CorelDRAW, which they said was completely compatible with Photoshop psd format (meaning that X7 is not?) it also opened as a single layer. Still, knowing is better.

Thanks again.

Yeah! That's good news, on the whole.
I suspect that the .PSD import process was written in 8-bit by JASC (Corel's predecessor) and they need to enhance it for 16-bit (Perhaps in PSP X8?)

[MikeFromMesa]

Yeah! That's good news, on the whole.
I suspect that the .PSD import process was written in 8-bit by JASC (Corel's predecessor) and they need to enhance it for 16-bit (Perhaps in PSP X8?)

Perhaps you are right but I noticed that if I save a single layer 16 bit image using Photoshop and then open it using X7 I get a 16 bit image, not an 8 bit image. Still, the testing does seem to point to a fairly clear explanation as to why this problem was occurring.

There seem to me to be two issues here. One is the technical issue of not being able to properly open a multi-layer 16 bit psd file created by Photoshop. That now seems to have a work-around. Save it as an 8 bit psd file, open it in X7 and convert it back to 16 bits. I suppose you lose something because down-converting and then up-converting will, I think, not give you the same color gradations as keeping it as a 16 bit file through the whole process, but at least this seems to work.

The other issue is that Corel needs to better inform and train their support staff. I submitted a regular bug report about this and, 10 days later, I am told that merging psd layers is standard operating procedure when X7 opens a file when it is clearly not. And, even worse, the right answer had to come from a user support group, not technical support. I know support work is tough - I did dump busting, debugging and writing customer fixes for code I supported for 5 years, but I don't think this problem ever got past first line support and hence I never got a correct answer from the official support organization. I think Corel needs to address their support issues properly. Of course it is not glamorous work but it is essential to customer loyalty and satisfaction. Just my two cents.

[Forriner]

Not that it means anything but you all did a great job, congratulations!

[photodrawken]

There's one more thing just to finish off this discussion:

I don't think that X7 is somehow magically "merging" multiple 16-bit image layers into one layer. If it could do that, it would be much easier to simply display the layers as layers. I suspect that X7 is simply displaying the embedded thumbnail.

If anyone with Photoshop and X7 is interested, there are a couple of experiments that would test that theory:

• What is the bit depth of the image when a multiple 16-bit/layer 16-bit PSD file is opened? If it's 8-bit, that would strongly suggest the use of the embedded preview.
• If Photoshop allows specifying options for saving PSD files, see if you can set "No Preview" or "Low quality preview" or "Half-size preview", or some such option. When you open that 16-bit PSD in X7 at the same image size as the full quality preview PSD, you should be able to see the lower image quality.

[MikeFromMesa]

[*]What is the bit depth of the image when a multiple 16-bit/layer 16-bit PSD file is opened? If it's 8-bit, that would strongly suggest the use of the embedded preview.
[*]If Photoshop allows specifying options for saving PSD files, see if you can set "No Preview" or "Low quality preview" or "Half-size preview", or some such option. When you open that 16-bit PSD in X7 at the same image size as the full quality preview PSD, you should be able to see the lower image quality.[/list]

1) My 2 layer Photoshop psd file, when opened by X7 (and only showing a single layer) shows 16 bit depth, not 8 bit.

2) As a test one of the things I did was to change the opacity of the top layer in Photoshop before I saved the file as a psd. This was in addition to all of the other tests and I wanted to see if X7 was actually throwing away the lower layer or merging them. What I found was that the single layer file opened by X7 showed the underlying layer the same way Photoshop would have showed it had I flattened the image. That is, it included the lower layer information in a file merge rather than just tossing the second layer.

Given all of this I don't think it is a thumbnail.

[photodrawken]

That is, it included the lower layer information in a file merge rather than just tossing the second layer.

That effect would also occur in the preview image embedded in the PSD file.

[photodrawken]

1) My 2 layer Photoshop psd file, when opened by X7 (and only showing a single layer) shows 16 bit depth, not 8 bit.

OK, that in itself doesn't prove anything -- Photoshop could quite possibly be creating and embedding a 16-bit preview image, which is why I mentioned the second test.

[MikeFromMesa]

1) My 2 layer Photoshop psd file, when opened by X7 (and only showing a single layer) shows 16 bit depth, not 8 bit.

OK, that in itself doesn't prove anything -- Photoshop could quite possibly be creating and embedding a 16-bit preview image, which is why I mentioned the second test.

There is no way that I know of to tell Photoshop to not include the thumbnail or to specify that a lower quality preview be used.

Consider the layout of the 2 layer file. There is a first layer, with opacity set to about 60%. There is a second layer and, if you flatten the image, you will see part of the second image through parts of the first image. When the file is opened in X7 that is what you see. The layer thumbnails in Photoshop do not show the second image blending into the first image. The main display shows that but not the thumbnails.

I have to say that I don't know what is going on but it seems to me that X7 is doing a flatten of the image because that is what I see when I open the file in X7.

[photodrawken]

There is no way that I know of to tell Photoshop to not include the thumbnail or to specify that a lower quality preview be used.

Oh, well. It would have been nice to do that experiment....

Consider the layout of the 2 layer file. There is a first layer, with opacity set to about 60%. There is a second layer and, if you flatten the image, you will see part of the second image through parts of the first image. When the file is opened in X7 that is what you see. The layer thumbnails in Photoshop do not show the second image blending into the first image. The main display shows that but not the thumbnails.

I have to say that I don't know what is going on but it seems to me that X7 is doing a flatten of the image because that is what I see when I open the file in X7.

No, Photoshop will flatten the layers to create a preview -- after all, that's what a preview is for....

The layer thumbnails in Photoshop are completely irrelevant for this question. What you see in PSP X7 is either the PS-flattened preview embedded in the PSD file, or PSP flattening the layers. PSP's flattening is highly unlikely for the reasons I stated above.

The only way to tell for sure is to alter only the preview without affecting the underlying layers from which the preview is created. When I get some time later this evening, I'll use PhotoLine to alter the PSD thumbnail and see if that alteration is permanent after saving the PSD. If I can do that, I'll need to find a way to get the PSD to someone with PSPX7 to test.