VS X7 stutters even though correct fps settings

[coupernst]

Hi together,

I am new here and I want to buy the VS Pro X7, so I tested it with my new GoPro Files. Before I made Video editing with older VS Versions, so I am not that new in this hobby.
Now I have a problem with my 1080p 29,97fps Gopro records when I render them into 1080p 29,97 videofiles (varies of codecs, always the same problem). As soons as the video gets rendered in one of the codecs and smart rendering cant get used, inthis very moment the resulting fine video stutters like I would have an unsynched output (like playing a 29,97fps file with a 25fps monitor...)

Before my conditions:

Rendering PC:
I5-760
8gb DDR1600
256gb System SSD (and 500gb Raid-0 internal disks for local working)
external 4gb WD Nas-drive for raw records and resulting videos (used for the testfiles below)

Player System:
Rendering PC OR HTPC with OpenElec/XBMC (i3, 4gb DDR1333, Nvidia 630GT, frame-synced video output!!!! to Panaconic Full-HD TV)

Camera
GoPro HD3+ Black Edition

Now my testfiles:

---------------------------------------------------------
File: (record)
00_GoProRecord_1080p_2997fps.mp4
Rendering setting in VS7:
none, since it is the raw material
behavier:
runs fluent, no stuttering on any playback device
Mediainfo:

Code: Select all

Allgemein
Vollständiger Name                       : E:\test\00_GoProRecord_1080p_2997fps.MP4
Format                                   : MPEG-4
Format-Profil                            : JVT
Codec-ID                                 : avc1
Dateigröße                               : 226 MiB
Dauer                                    : 1min 2s
Modus der Gesamtbitrate                  : variabel
Gesamte Bitrate                          : 30,3 Mbps
Kodierungs-Datum                         : UTC 2014-05-29 12:42:35
Tagging-Datum                            : UTC 2014-05-29 12:42:35
AMBA                                     : 

Video
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : AVC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Video Codec
Format-Profil                            : High@L4.1
Format-Einstellungen für CABAC           : Ja
Format-Einstellungen für ReFrames        : 1 frame
Format_Settings_GOP                      : M=1, N=15
Codec-ID                                 : avc1
Codec-ID/Info                            : Advanced Video Coding
Dauer                                    : 1min 2s
Bitraten-Modus                           : variabel
Bitrate                                  : 30,0 Mbps
Breite                                   : 1 920 Pixel
Höhe                                     : 1 080 Pixel
Bildseitenverhältnis                     : 16:9
Modus der Bildwiederholungsrate          : konstant
Bildwiederholungsrate                    : 29,970 FPS
ColorSpace                               : YUV
ChromaSubsampling                        : 4:2:0
BitDepth/String                          : 8 bits
Scantyp                                  : progressiv
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.483
Stream-Größe                             : 225 MiB (99%)
Titel                                    : GoPro AVC
Sprache                                  : Englisch
Kodierungs-Datum                         : UTC 2014-05-29 12:42:35
Tagging-Datum                            : UTC 2014-05-29 12:42:35
colour_primaries                         : BT.709
transfer_characteristics                 : BT.709
matrix_coefficients                      : BT.709

Audio
ID                                       : 2
Format                                   : AAC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Audio Codec
Format-Profil                            : LC
Codec-ID                                 : 40
Dauer                                    : 1min 2s
Bitraten-Modus                           : konstant
Bitrate                                  : 128 Kbps
Kanäle                                   : 2 Kanäle
Kanal-Positionen                         : Front: L R
Samplingrate                             : 48,0 KHz
Stream-Größe                             : 979 KiB (0%)
Titel                                    : GoPro AAC
Sprache                                  : Englisch
Kodierungs-Datum                         : UTC 2014-05-29 12:42:35
Tagging-Datum                            : UTC 2014-05-29 12:42:35

Andere
ID                                       : 3
Type                                     : Time code
Format                                   : QuickTime TC
Dauer                                    : 1min 2s
TimeCode_FirstFrame                      : 12:41:48:08
TimeCode_Settings                        : Striped
Sprache                                  : Englisch
Kodierungs-Datum                         : UTC 2014-05-29 12:42:35
Tagging-Datum                            : UTC 2014-05-29 12:42:35

---------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------
File:
01_GleichWieErsterClip_SRan.mp4
Rendering setting in VS7:
"like first video clip" + smart rendering activated
behavier:
runs fluent, no stuttering on any playback device
Mediainfo:

Code: Select all

Allgemein
Vollständiger Name                       : E:\test\01_GleichWieErsterClip_SRan.mp4
Format                                   : MPEG-4
Format-Profil                            : Base Media
Codec-ID                                 : isom
Dateigröße                               : 226 MiB
Dauer                                    : 1min 2s
Modus der Gesamtbitrate                  : variabel
Gesamte Bitrate                          : 30,2 Mbps
Kodierungs-Datum                         : UTC 2014-06-02 17:45:50
Tagging-Datum                            : UTC 2014-06-02 17:45:50

Video
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : AVC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Video Codec
Format-Profil                            : High@L4.1
Format-Einstellungen für CABAC           : Ja
Format-Einstellungen für ReFrames        : 1 frame
Format_Settings_GOP                      : M=1, N=15
Codec-ID                                 : avc1
Codec-ID/Info                            : Advanced Video Coding
Dauer                                    : 1min 2s
Bitraten-Modus                           : variabel
Bitrate                                  : 30,0 Mbps
Breite                                   : 1 920 Pixel
Höhe                                     : 1 080 Pixel
Bildseitenverhältnis                     : 16:9
Modus der Bildwiederholungsrate          : konstant
Bildwiederholungsrate                    : 29,970 FPS
ColorSpace                               : YUV
ChromaSubsampling                        : 4:2:0
BitDepth/String                          : 8 bits
Scantyp                                  : progressiv
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.483
Stream-Größe                             : 225 MiB (100%)
Sprache                                  : Englisch
Kodierungs-Datum                         : UTC 2014-06-02 17:45:50
Tagging-Datum                            : UTC 2014-06-02 17:45:50
colour_primaries                         : BT.709
transfer_characteristics                 : BT.709
matrix_coefficients                      : BT.709

Audio
ID                                       : 2
Format                                   : AAC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Audio Codec
Format-Profil                            : LC
Codec-ID                                 : 40
Dauer                                    : 1min 2s
Bitraten-Modus                           : konstant
Bitrate                                  : 128 Kbps
Kanäle                                   : 2 Kanäle
Kanal-Positionen                         : Front: L R
Samplingrate                             : 48,0 KHz
Stream-Größe                             : 979 KiB (0%)
Sprache                                  : Englisch
Kodierungs-Datum                         : UTC 2014-06-02 17:45:50
Tagging-Datum                            : UTC 2014-06-02 17:45:50

---------------------------------------------------------
File:
02_GleichWieErsterClip_SRaus.mp4
Rendering setting in VS7:
"like first video clip" + smart rendering deactivated
behavier:
stutters on every Playback device (not a CPU or GPU or Screenproblem!)
Mediainfo:

Code: Select all

Allgemein
Vollständiger Name                       : E:\test\02_GleichWieErsterClip_SRaus.mp4
Format                                   : MPEG-4
Format-Profil                            : Base Media
Codec-ID                                 : isom
Dateigröße                               : 207 MiB
Dauer                                    : 1min 2s
Modus der Gesamtbitrate                  : variabel
Gesamte Bitrate                          : 27,7 Mbps
Kodierungs-Datum                         : UTC 2014-06-02 17:42:39
Tagging-Datum                            : UTC 2014-06-02 17:42:39

Video
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : AVC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Video Codec
Format-Profil                            : High@L4.1
Format-Einstellungen für CABAC           : Ja
Format-Einstellungen für ReFrames        : 2 frames
Format_Settings_GOP                      : M=3, N=15
Codec-ID                                 : avc1
Codec-ID/Info                            : Advanced Video Coding
Dauer                                    : 1min 2s
Bitraten-Modus                           : variabel
Bitrate                                  : 27,6 Mbps
maximale Bitrate                         : 30,0 Mbps
Breite                                   : 1 920 Pixel
Höhe                                     : 1 080 Pixel
Bildseitenverhältnis                     : 16:9
Modus der Bildwiederholungsrate          : konstant
Bildwiederholungsrate                    : 29,970 FPS
Standard                                 : NTSC
ColorSpace                               : YUV
ChromaSubsampling                        : 4:2:0
BitDepth/String                          : 8 bits
Scantyp                                  : progressiv
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.444
Stream-Größe                             : 206 MiB (100%)
Sprache                                  : Englisch
Kodierungs-Datum                         : UTC 2014-06-02 17:42:39
Tagging-Datum                            : UTC 2014-06-02 17:42:39
colour_primaries                         : BT.709
transfer_characteristics                 : BT.709
matrix_coefficients                      : BT.709

Audio
ID                                       : 2
Format                                   : AAC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Audio Codec
Format-Profil                            : LC
Codec-ID                                 : 40
Dauer                                    : 1min 2s
Bitraten-Modus                           : konstant
Bitrate                                  : 128 Kbps
Kanäle                                   : 2 Kanäle
Kanal-Positionen                         : Front: L R
Samplingrate                             : 48,0 KHz
Stream-Größe                             : 982 KiB (0%)
Sprache                                  : Englisch
Kodierungs-Datum                         : UTC 2014-06-02 17:42:39
Tagging-Datum                            : UTC 2014-06-02 17:42:39

---------------------------------------------------------
File:
03_h264_25mbps_2pass_2997fps_SRan.m2t
Rendering setting in VS7:
"AVC/h.264"-"h264"-"25mbps"-"2-pass"-"1920x1080"-"29.97fps"-"picture based(progressiv, dont know the english translation)"-"smart rendering on/off makes no difference"
behavier:
stutters on every Playback device (not a CPU or GPU or Screenproblem!)
Mediainfo:

Code: Select all

Allgemein
ID                                       : 0 (0x0)
Vollständiger Name                       : E:\test\03_h264_25mbps_2pass_2997fps_SRan.m2t
Format                                   : BDAV
Format/Info                              : Blu-ray Video
Dateigröße                               : 173 MiB
Dauer                                    : 1min 2s
Modus der Gesamtbitrate                  : variabel
Gesamte Bitrate                          : 23,2 Mbps
maximale Gesamtbitrate                   : 31,6 Mbps

Video
ID                                       : 4113 (0x1011)
Menü-ID                                  : 1 (0x1)
Format                                   : AVC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Video Codec
Format-Profil                            : High@L4.0
Format-Einstellungen für CABAC           : Ja
Format-Einstellungen für ReFrames        : 2 frames
Format_Settings_GOP                      : M=3, N=15
Codec-ID                                 : 27
Dauer                                    : 1min 2s
Bitraten-Modus                           : variabel
Bitrate                                  : 22,1 Mbps
maximale Bitrate                         : 25,0 Mbps
Breite                                   : 1 920 Pixel
Höhe                                     : 1 080 Pixel
Bildseitenverhältnis                     : 16:9
Bildwiederholungsrate                    : 29,970 FPS
Standard                                 : NTSC
ColorSpace                               : YUV
ChromaSubsampling                        : 4:2:0
BitDepth/String                          : 8 bits
Scantyp                                  : progressiv
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.355
Stream-Größe                             : 165 MiB (95%)
colour_primaries                         : BT.709
transfer_characteristics                 : BT.709
matrix_coefficients                      : BT.709

Audio
ID                                       : 4352 (0x1100)
Menü-ID                                  : 1 (0x1)
Format                                   : AC-3
Format/Info                              : Audio Coding 3
Format_Settings_ModeExtension            : CM (complete main)
Format-Einstellungen für Endianess       : Big
Codec-ID                                 : 129
Dauer                                    : 1min 2s
Bitraten-Modus                           : konstant
Bitrate                                  : 256 Kbps
Kanäle                                   : 2 Kanäle
Kanal-Positionen                         : Front: L R
Samplingrate                             : 48,0 KHz
BitDepth/String                          : 16 bits
Stream-Größe                             : 1,91 MiB (1%)

---------------------------------------------------------
File:
04_mpeg2_25mbps_2pass_2997fps_SRan.m2t
Rendering setting in VS7:
"AVC/h.264"-"mpeg2"-"25mbps"-"2-pass"-"1920x1080"-"29.97fps"-"picture based(progressiv, dont know the english translation)"-"smart rendering on/off makes no difference"
behavier:
stutters on every Playback device (not a CPU or GPU or Screenproblem!)
Mediainfo:

Code: Select all

Allgemein
ID                                       : 0 (0x0)
Vollständiger Name                       : E:\test\04_mpeg2_25mbps_2pass_2997fps_SRan.m2t
Format                                   : BDAV
Format/Info                              : Blu-ray Video
Dateigröße                               : 183 MiB
Dauer                                    : 1min 2s
Modus der Gesamtbitrate                  : variabel
Gesamte Bitrate                          : 24,5 Mbps
maximale Gesamtbitrate                   : 31,6 Mbps

Video
ID                                       : 4113 (0x1011)
Menü-ID                                  : 1 (0x1)
Format                                   : MPEG Video
Format-Version                           : Version 2
Format-Profil                            : Main@High
Format-Einstellungen für BVOP            : Ja
Format-Einstellungen für Matrix          : üblich
Format_Settings_GOP                      : M=3, N=15
Codec-ID                                 : 2
Dauer                                    : 1min 2s
Bitraten-Modus                           : variabel
Bitrate                                  : 23,3 Mbps
maximale Bitrate                         : 25,0 Mbps
Breite                                   : 1 920 Pixel
Höhe                                     : 1 080 Pixel
Bildseitenverhältnis                     : 16:9
Bildwiederholungsrate                    : 29,970 FPS
ColorSpace                               : YUV
ChromaSubsampling                        : 4:2:0
BitDepth/String                          : 8 bits
Scantyp                                  : progressiv
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.374
TimeCode_FirstFrame                      : 00:00:00:00
TimeCode_Source                          : Group of pictures header
Stream-Größe                             : 174 MiB (95%)

Audio
ID                                       : 4352 (0x1100)
Menü-ID                                  : 1 (0x1)
Format                                   : AC-3
Format/Info                              : Audio Coding 3
Format_Settings_ModeExtension            : CM (complete main)
Format-Einstellungen für Endianess       : Big
Codec-ID                                 : 129
Dauer                                    : 1min 2s
Bitraten-Modus                           : konstant
Bitrate                                  : 256 Kbps
Kanäle                                   : 2 Kanäle
Kanal-Positionen                         : Front: L R
Samplingrate                             : 48,0 KHz
BitDepth/String                          : 16 bits
Stream-Größe                             : 1,91 MiB (1%)

From all files I made a 5 second remux to a mkv, so you can see 5 same files. Can you please find the problems? VS X7 screws something there.
Here the DL Link: http://netload.in/dateiSoFDCr9YMZ/testfiles.zip.htm

[Ken Berry]

Can we assume you are in Germany? If so, do you have your Video Studio set up for PAL? If in fact it is, this could explain the problems you are having with your NTSC footage. When you render using "Same As First Clip" and have SmartRender enabled, then of course it will render at 29.97 fps (i.e. NTSC) But if rendering to other formats, then perhaps it is using your PAL default settings, including 25 fps?

Is there any particular reason you have your Hero 3+ set to film in NTSC instead of PAL. (I don't have the 3+ but a Hero 3 Black, and have mine set to PAL and 25 or 50 fps). If you set it to PAL, do you have the same problems?

[coupernst]

Well this question is already answered in my rendering definitions and media Infos of my result files above. That's why I made a huge effort for this topic. I use 29,97 in the raw video and in my costum rendering profiles, not the standart pal or ntsc setups. Also my tv runs in NTSC while playing 29.97 or 59.94 Videos.
It is definitelly a VS Bug, because a program of the competitors hasn't this bug, but until now I liked the VS more. I will do some Pal records and test renderings, after that I will reinstall VS for changing to ntsc presets for my ntsc records in some tests, but it shouldn't effect, since I don't use the presets normally. I will post the media informations then.

Regards


Why do I use NTSC....because I prefer higher fps for perfect motions, so I prefer 29,97 over 25 fps.

[coupernst]

Hi,

how already told I had input 29.97fps files and output 29.97fps files with different (custom made) codec definitions, which stutterted as soon as smart rendering wasnt working any more (XBMC playes them in correct fps screen output).
I have a "German" installed (PAL) Programm, my 29.97 output settings are custom (because I want to use higher bitrates and 2-pass encoding) and how you can see in my first post the media info confirms the frame-correct output.

Through your hint I made a test and rendered 25fps GoPro records with 25fps output with different custom (2-pass etc.) codecs and media info again confirms the 25fps output....all files dont stutter (XBMC plays them in 50fps Screen output)
For a stupid test I rendered a 29.97fps input as a 25fps output on purpose (which you expected me to do so accidently) --> File has nearly the same stuttering behavior like I complain about for my 29.97 input->29.97 output files

NOW I will reinstall Corel Videostudio as a "NTSC" installation and make all my tests again.
I bet a PAL VideoStudio installation is dropping frames when you use NTSC input, even when you render it to NTSC output (through custom codec definitions). I bet my NTSC VideoStudio installation will handle my 29.97 files perfectly.

Will give feedback in one hour

[coupernst]

AAAND I was right.

PAL Installation:
29.97fps input --> 29.97fps recoded output stutters
25fps input --> 25fps recoded output runs perfect

NTSC Installation:
29.97fps input --> 29.97fps recoded output runs perfect

Well, I would say that is a bug. Corel cant expect that their costumers dont make custom rendering configurations independent from their choise of installation type.

[skier-hughes]

Unfortunately others of us would say it is not a bug and would expect an installation for PAL to deal with PAL files.
At least you know know you can get a good output with the programme you prefer.

[coupernst]

a) it is a bug or at least ill-conceived. However I install the program: when I import a NTSC File and render it as NTSC video...it has to work. Corel cant expect the customer to use just one single codec (addendum: and fps) configuration.
b) unluckily it just worked out for single files. My large movie is stuttering again..I think I wont buy this, sorry. To sad..I liked the handlingn (edit: found the error, see my answer below).

[skier-hughes]

NTSC isn't a codec

[coupernst]

I know...no one said, I just wanted not to repeat a thousend times "29,97fps". I am sorry that you dont understand or dont want to understand.
More clear than with detailed descriptions and mediainfos (I hope you know that program, otherways I think you mignt not be in the right position to teach me...) I cant try to make you seeing.

So far, when you dont want to help, perhaps my experiences can help someone else:
Again...
Starting Point
This file (import of a gopro raw record):

Code: Select all

Format                                   : AVC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Video Codec
Format-Profil                            : High@L4.1
Format-Einstellungen für CABAC           : Ja
Format-Einstellungen für ReFrames        : 1 frame
Format_Settings_GOP                      : M=1, N=15
Codec-ID                                 : avc1
Codec-ID/Info                            : Advanced Video Coding
Dauer                                    : 1min 2s
Bitraten-Modus                           : variabel
Bitrate                                  : 30,0 Mbps
Breite                                   : 1 920 Pixel
Höhe                                     : 1 080 Pixel
Bildseitenverhältnis                     : 16:9
Modus der Bildwiederholungsrate          : konstant
Bildwiederholungsrate                    : 29,970 FPS
ColorSpace                               : YUV
ChromaSubsampling                        : 4:2:0
BitDepth/String                          : 8 bits
Scantyp                                  : progressiv
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.483
Stream-Größe                             : 225 MiB (99%)
Titel                                    : GoPro AVC
Sprache                                  : Englisch
Kodierungs-Datum                         : UTC 2014-05-29 12:42:35
Tagging-Datum                            : UTC 2014-05-29 12:42:35
colour_primaries                         : BT.709
transfer_characteristics                 : BT.709
matrix_coefficients                      : BT.709

recoded to this video:

Code: Select all

Format                                   : AVC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Video Codec
Format-Profil                            : High@L4.0
Format-Einstellungen für CABAC           : Ja
Format-Einstellungen für ReFrames        : 2 frames
Format_Settings_GOP                      : M=3, N=15
Codec-ID                                 : 27
Dauer                                    : 1min 2s
Bitraten-Modus                           : variabel
Bitrate                                  : 22,1 Mbps
maximale Bitrate                         : 25,0 Mbps
Breite                                   : 1 920 Pixel
Höhe                                     : 1 080 Pixel
Bildseitenverhältnis                     : 16:9
Bildwiederholungsrate                    : 29,970 FPS
Standard                                 : NTSC
ColorSpace                               : YUV
ChromaSubsampling                        : 4:2:0
BitDepth/String                          : 8 bits
Scantyp                                  : progressiv
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.355
Stream-Größe                             : 165 MiB (95%)
colour_primaries                         : BT.709
transfer_characteristics                 : BT.709
matrix_coefficients                      : BT.709

is stuttering.

A 25fps record rendered to 25fps video didnt stutter...but why? After that I reinstalled VS X7 and tested it again it didnt stutter any more, I thought the new installation fixed my problem....buuuut I made a wrong conclusion. The cause why it worked wasnt the new installation. The cause was that the "projectsettings" where (through my playing around in the program perhaps) on a NTFS profile.
So the nonsense of contradictory configurations which these program allowes is following: Even when you import a 29.97fps file and save it as a 29.97fps file with a custom render profile/setting your can get a stuttering video....when your project setting is (as it was in my case while having the errors) on a another fps (in my case accidently 25fps). I think it comes from the effects and textes which get provided to your timeline/project appropriated to your "project settings". To avoid other problems it seems that Videostudio then drops frames from your 29,97fps record to make it compatible to your (accidently) 25fps project settings. When you recode it at the end with another fps setting then the project settings, you get this other fps in the result...but with dropped frames.

To avoid this thing: Define your wished result codec and settings not at the end when you export. Define it in the project settings and export it with "same as project setting (if this is the translation in the program, I use the german version).
Corel would be able to avoid these possibility of contradictory configurations when the export setting would dominate over the project settings....OOOOOR...when it states a warning message as soon as you export a project in another fps setting than steted in the project settings.

Thanks for the hints I got in the first answer, Topic closed...I think so far.
Perhaps you understand the problem, if not...I am sorry for that.

Regards..the complaining German