Rendering HDV & 1080p Footage To SD DVD

[soccerman]

I recently bought a Canon XA20 and have been filming in 1920 x 1080p 28mbps 50fps with Dolby Digital Audio 48000Hz 256kbps, then converting that in VSX7 Ultimate using Share-DVD to create SD DVDs (720 x 576, but frame-based with 25fps and the audio kept as Dolby Digital instead of the LPCM template).
The results have been excellent when played back in laptops, PCs and viewed on 1080p-enabled TV sets...especially slow-motion replays because I have filmed in 50fps, although obviously when viewed on 'old' interlaced TV sets, the SD-converted 1080p footage is flickery/'film-like. As most people watching my DVDs nowadays are doing so on laptops, PCs and 1080p TVs though, I would like to keep producing frame-based SD DVDs.

Now here's the problem....
My next job is editing and producing SD DVDs of a football ('Soccer') tournament filmed by five different cameramen including myself, all of whom are using different cameras and filming using different specifications.
Two of them can only film in 1080i HDV (1440 x 1080), another one can film in 1920 x 1080p, but can only do 25fps, and another one is now using a Canon XF100 which only produces MXF files...which are not compatible with VSX7. I have downloded a Pavtube Video Converter to solve that problem, but at the moment I don't know what to convert the MXF files to because the same audio option as my footage is not there.

I have found that viewing football/soccer matches (or any other fast-moving sport) in 1080i (and on SD DVDs from 1080i down-converted footage) results in the pictures being rather blurry and 'strobey' when played back on PCs, laptops and progressive-scan TV's, so I would like to stick to down-converting from 1080p instead.

Has anybody had any experience of mixing all these different formats in VSX7 or previous versions to produce an SD DVD without any problems ?

[lata]

Hi soccerman

You are gonna have some quality problems in using the different formats.

If you intend to burn a disc then you have to use 25fps, 50fps is not compatible for SD DVD or BlurayDiscs, it has to be 25fps.
So any recordings you do in 50p are gonna lose half the frames when burnt to disc.
The MFX files are I assume HD so convert them to MTS HD, or maybe use the same settings as your Canon XA20, I would change the recordings to use 25fps.

You may be best to create a Bluray, full hd quality video, that of course will use 25fps 1920 x 1080.
Then convert the HD video file to SD Mpeg2 to burn the DVD.
Viewing the DVD on older TV’s may require interlacing.

Consider recording in 1920 x 1080 x 25fps Upper Field, highest data rate the camera will do? Probably about 18000kbps?

[soccerman]

Thanks Lata/Trevor

Yes, I will probably now get three cameramen (including myself) filming in 1920 x 1080i (Upper Field First) 25fps as their cameras don't have a 50fps filming option anyway. My Canon XA20's data rate for that setting is 17 Mbps.
One further thing I will need to check is their data rate for filming in 1080i though as their cameras' data rate for filming in 1080p 25fps is 50 Mbps !
They also film in 4:2:2 whereas my Canon XA20 is 4:2:0. (Color sampling).
I'm sure I read on this Forum somewhere (some time ago) that any data rate above 28 Mbps, 4:2:2 color sampling, and of course MXF files (which their cameras produce) are all incompatible with VSX7. Is that correct ?

The other two cameramen will be filming in HDV (1440 x 1080i) as already mentioned. Fortunately their footage will be produced on different DVDs to the other three.

You say that any recordings I film in 50p (50fps) will lose half the frames once converted to an SD DVD. Yes, the SD DVD is automatically rendered as 25fps, but when viewing the finished disc in my laptop or PC, it comes out fine. No flickering and the slow-motion replays are great. Twice as smooth as when I film in 25fps.
That was why I would have preferred to have everyone filming in 50p instead of 25p or 50i. Simply because of the improved quality of slow-motion replays.

[Ken Berry]

The other two cameramen will be filming in HDV (1440 x 1080i) as already mentioned. Fortunately their footage will be produced on different DVDs to the other three.

If the other three will in future be filming using 1920 x 1080i UFF at 25 fps, then there is no need to segregate the HDV footage. If all you are worried about is the frame size (1440 x 1080 as opposed to 1920 x 1080), then just be aware that that is not a problem at all. HDV's frame size is what is called "anamorphic" and in reality appears exactly the same as 1920 x 1080i footage on a HDTV screen or computer monitor. I know since I use HDV quite a lot. Otherwise, HDV is high def mpeg-2, and uses UFF. The only difference really is that it also uses mpeg layer 2 audio, but that is no problem to convert in the final rendering to either Dolby or LPCM.

I'm sure I read on this Forum somewhere (some time ago) that any data rate above 28 Mbps, 4:2:2 color sampling, and of course MXF files (which their cameras produce) are all incompatible with VSX7. Is that correct ?

I confess I know nothing about colour sampling and what the difference might mean in practice. But MXF, as you already know, is not usable as such in VS. It is more at the professional end of the market. But the data rate of 28 Mbps is currently the maximum under the international AVCHD 2.0 standard. Sure, there are quite a few cameras these days that can film using higher bitrates, and some editing programs can also deal with it. But if intending to make a Blu-Ray disc using AVCHD in its native format, then 28 Mbps is the most that can be used or produced. On the other hand, if you produce Blu-Ray using one of the other compatible Blu-Ray formats, namely Blu-Ray mpeg-2, then you can use a higher bitrate. VS allows 35 Mbps, though other programs may go even higher than that...

And as a sort of footnote, just also be aware that the international Blu-Ray standard currently only allows 50/60P footage if its frame size is 1280 x 720...If it is 1920 x 1080 (or indeed 1440 x 1080), then it has to be 50/60i (i.e. 25/29.97 fps interlaced).

[soccerman]

Thanks Ken

Some very useful info there as I am very much a newbie for HD editing.

Just to say that I won't be producing Blu-Ray discs from any of this footage anyway as the participating players (or rather their parents as it is a Youth Soccer Tournament) cannot afford the extra cost...and most of them don't have Blu-Ray players. They only want standard 4.7GB DVDs.
I still want to film the Tournament in HD (or HDV) though to store the original footage on external hard drives for future use.

Regarding VS's data rate limitations, it appears that the two cameramen with the MXF file-producing cameras can record in 1920 x 1080i/50i and can alter their 4:2:2 color sampling to 4:2:0, but they think the bitrate will 'automatically' be 35 Mbps.
The Pavtube converter can convert the MXF files to .m2t and I can customise the data rate (bitrate) while doing so...although should I ?
Will the 35 Mbps data rate work in VSX7 anyway if those files are being mixed in the timeline with my camera's 1920 x 1080i/50i 17 Mbps data rate footage ?

[Ken Berry]

The Pavtube converter can convert the MXF files to .m2t and I can customise the data rate (bitrate) while doing so...although should I ?
Will the 35 Mbps data rate work in VSX7 anyway if those files are being mixed in the timeline with my camera's 1920 x 1080i/50i 17 Mbps data rate footage ?

Since VS can actually produce .m2t files which use 35 Mbps as the data rate (i.e. Blu-Ray mpeg-2), VS should certainly be able to deal with .m2t files (from MXF) using that rate or lower. So it is up to you to leave the bitrate alone during the conversion or else lower it.

But in any case it would seem to me to be irrelevant whether you mixed your 17 Mbps footage with footage using a different/higher bitrate since in the end all of it will be down-converted to DVD-compatible standard def mpeg-2 which will use a bitrate of around only 8 Mbps -- and even less if the project is longer than an hour... (A single layer DVD can only hold around an hour of high quality standard def video using 8000 kbps. Thus if the project is longer, the bitrate has to be reduced to fit the project onto the disc. Of course, quality also reduces with a reduced bitrate.)

[soccerman]

Thanks Ken

Once again that is all very useful info there and I will start experimenting with that later today.