HD format and display resolution

[Davidk]

This is a query that results from an experiment in using HD with R/C boat models on a local lake.

The camera is a one those small action thingy's - not a go-pro as such, but similar. It was set to HD1920x1080 30fps, and mounted on a fast patrol boast model and recorded as we zoomed around the lake. Looking at the result on my PC later, I have 2 queries:

1. The file format. Following research on HD formats using VS and players, I'd understood that HD formats were NOT those commonly used for standard DVD. Nevertheless, the recorded result is shown as an mpeg-4 format. That, I did not expect. The file details are captured in this screenshot (2nd last .mov file in the list, the 800Kb, 8min item):

Q1 just how different are the actual recorded HD formats to those that might ultimately be generated for a disk or TV/monitor display?

2. The resolution. The file size versus duration certainly suggests it is HD. 1920x1080 is certainly - on the face of it - better resolution than a standard 720x576 image. In my experience, standard definition will generate this file size after about 20 minutes. But when this file was played in either media player or as a clip in Video Studio X6 both on a hi-res computer monitor, it doesn't look any different. The sort of finer detail/texture that HD should capture and display just wasn't there.

Q2 Is there a reason why an HD file did not display fine details?

Davidk

[Ken Berry]

I'd understood that HD formats were NOT those commonly used for standard DVD.

That is certainly the case. Standard def DVDs require either standard def mpeg-2 or else the process of producing a DVD will convert whatever the input format is to standard def mpeg-2. That .mov file highlighted is certainly high def AVCHD which is mpeg-4 produced using the h.264 codec. And its bitrate is near 24 Mbps which means it is quite high quality.

Q1 just how different are the actual recorded HD formats to those that might ultimately be generated for a disk or TV/monitor display?

That file, and probably the others as well should be able to be played on a HDTV either directly on a USB drive plugged into the TV's HDMI if it is a recent model, or else plugged into a Blu-Ray capable player connected to the HDTV. Some HDTVs might require it to have another AVCHD extension such as .m2t or .mts. But the process of converting the .mov files to those extensions should not be difficult nor involve any noticeable loss of quality.

When you mention a disk, I have already commented above on standard def DVDs. Any HD file has to be down-converted to standard def mpeg-2 in order to be able to burn to DVD. However, There are two other types of disk -- an AVCHD hybrid disk (which is high def AVCHD burned to a standard DVD blank but with a Blu-Ray structure, and which can only be played on a Blu-Ray player); and Blu-Ray discs themselves. They can take AVCHD files directly, though again some fairly easy tinkering might be required to get them using the acceptable Blu-Ray extension of .m2t.

Q2 Is there a reason why an HD file did not display fine details?

I think the HD fine detail is really there -- though I can usually tell the difference quite easily between HD and standard def video when played in either Media Player or VS itself. Mind you, the VS preview screen has never been particularly wonderful in terms of quality. The real test is when you play them on a large screen HDTV.

[Davidk]

Hi Ken,

Thanks for the info. After bit of thought (initially, along the lines of playing that file over an HDMI connection but that seemed to limit the resulting display resolution to whatever the host laptop and thus the playing software could support), I copied one of those .mov files to an empty usb memory stick and repaired to my handy HD TV, and plugged it into one of the usb sockets it has. I checked the interface standard - usb2 for both the stick and TV. And the SONIQ TV (an E42Z10B 42in full HD LED LCD model just over 2 years old) supported a range of movie file formats according to the doco - .rmvb, .mkv, .mov, .avi, .trp, .tp etc (only 2 of those made any sense to me, and just what the 'etc' covered could only be wild imagination). But since the recording was a .mov file and that was a supported format, I pressed on.

Changing the TV to the media input, the memory was immediately connected, and the path to the movie file presented. Alas, playing the file (highlight the path/filename and press OK) just presented an unsupported format message. Re-try - same result.

Any ideas in terms of file format variations that might have caused this?

Davidk

[Ken Berry]

Are you sure the TV will play those formats direct from a USB drive? Or should they be played via a Blu-Ray drive connected via HDMI (which is what my Samsung 46" one requires)? And after all, all of those formats also come in standard def vanilla format, so maybe that too could be an answer.

Can you try converting the .mov file you highlight to straight AVCHD high def: Share > Create Video File > AVCHD. Unfortunately, the max bitrate you will be able to achieve will be 20 Mbps (if you choose Custom instead of AVCHD, and then select the format as MPEG Transport Stream (*.m2t).) Or 18 Mbps if you choose one of the preset templates for AVCHD. But the quality will still be very good. I am not sure you can just change the extension from .mov to .m2t (or even .mpg) but it could be worth a try.

[Davidk]

It should (play a movie from the usb stick). According to the doco on the TV, a media file (photo, music or movie) can be stored on a usb device (specific formats and contents of that USB defined, eg only FAT32 or NTFS, and only media files on the usb device) which when plugged in to the TV can be played after the data source has been selected. The formats described in the movie section were as stated in the prior post. So everything up to the unsupported format message was looking good.

I've previously played stuff (eg the beach horses video file that comes as part of the standard libraries with windows 7) on the TV using the HDMI connection from a laptop, specifically to check out the HDMI connection for use with my VS class, and it worked fine. So that was my 1st thought, but (2nd thought) I realised that connection only plays or echoes the host computer display imagery, and if media player or VS on that host doesn't show the detail that seems to be in the file, an echoed display via HDMI would not either, so that method was not a goer. Which was when I did a bit more reading on usb support by the TV and came up with the approach I outlined.

I'll explore further. Interestingly, in the context of alternate formats you outline, the format m2t is not one those listed as supported in the documentation.

Davidk

[Davidk]

I don't have a blu-ray player, so even using those .mov files to burn a blu-ray disk or even a half-way house AVCHD DVD using VS isn't going to help me.

I did try to re-name the existing file - from .mov to .mpg - and even to shorten the filename, but playing that that did not work.

And I've found out that the soniq website is crap for anyone wanting to even ask a product support query - eg why won't supported format movie files play?

Still thinking, but at the moment the ideas paper looks pretty bare . . . .

Davidk

[lata]

Hi David

Mov are just containers holding a variety of compression types, so even if your player supports Mov it may not play all types.

Re-naming Mov to MPG wont work either as they are completely different beasts.
Try re-naming to MP4 would be a better option as Mov and MP4 are very similar.
MP4 being derived from Mov.

Your best option may be to convert the originals to standard definition DVD Mpeg2.
That should play on your player.
One twist is to use Frame Based and not interlaced as your originals are Frame Based.

As you don’t have HD Bluray player you will have to use DVD Mpeg2.

Most TV/DVD players support Div X so that may be an option to pursue.
Transport Stream may work, but I have to re-name from MTS to MPG in order for my dvd player to recognise the files.
Then I had problems with my USB memory sticks, one worked and the other had problems, that didn’t help at all.

Keep running the tests till you find the right format that works for you?
Purchase a Bluray player

[canuck]

As Trevor said, not every player can play all "variations" of a video format. I have a Samsung and a Sony HD TV and I know that the Samsung plays more variations then the Sony when played through a USB stick. I also have a WD HD Streaming media player hooked up to the TVs and they will play almost everything I throw at it but still not all. MOV files seem to be the ones that give the most problems especially when they come from digital cameras.

Could you perhaps upload a short mov clip that we can play and test?

[Ken Berry]

Do you have a Sony Playstation 3 or 4? They are excellent Blu-Ray players apart from being game consoles. And they connect to the HDTV via HDMI...

One other option would be to buy a Blu-Ray player or Media Box. I am pretty sure Soniq sells one which is quite cheapt (in the $40 to $50 range.) A Media Box could be an even better option as it can usual play a huge range of file formats. One such player which gains a lot of kudos in the computer/media magazines I subscribe to is the venerable WMD Media Box, and I have seen it advertised in Australia for around $120.

[Davidk]

After researching the HD formats and disks idea using VS some months ago I began - slowly - accumulating the necessary bits to do it. Already had the HD TV. When the burner in the desktop tower failed late last year, the replacement was Blu-ray capable, and after a lot of searching thru the various stores I found some blu-ray disks which enables me to test it out burning a single disk C drive data back-up from the latest files. So the burner seems Ok. The next step (last week) was either an HD camera or a blu-ray player: and I guess the camera came next in the form of an action item. If you've seen clips of sky-divers or snow skiers with a small camera strapped to the top of their helmets, one of those. Up to 32gb on a micro-SD card in a device that's a bit smaller than the size of a matchbox, if anyone is old enough to remember what size they were. Nothing swish about it - fixed focus, on or off (and with a wifi 802.11a smartphone app, can be remotely turned on or off). Good for what its designed for, but not really the thing to replace a good camcorder.

I don't have a games console - the kids have all long since departed the nest and there's no imperative for one or more. And the current DVD player is running fine - there's a reasonable DVD movie library but it's not - or hasn't been so far - a compelling need to get a better definition item. One reason has been the continuing cost of Blu-ray players - began over $A200 and despite price drops, still well over $A100 for even the cheapest item. But I agree the blu-ray player is next. When is under consideration - maybe sooner than she-who-must-be-obeyed is thinking of.

So, the next immediate thing was to try the change of filetype, as lata suggested, to mp4. Worked Ok using media player (in that the software played the file, rather than errored) so I tried again using the TV. No luck there again.

Canuck suggested a clip uploaded to test. How big is enough (I'd prefer to use one of the original source files without processing it in any way, but even the smallest of those with any detail just under 2mins is 168Mb), and where to?

Davidk

[canuck]

Of course we need one of the original files - you have a short one listed at 16 secs. That should be enough

[Davidk]

OK, the imagery there is yours truly figuring out if the camera was running after the boat was in water. Where to?

[lata]

David

Sharing sites

try Windows Sky Drive, now called One Drive.
I think the upload limit is 200Mb
You will soon find out when you try to upload

But there are others 4 Shared, Up for Down?

Post edited

details from One Drive

This file is too big
If you use Internet Explorer 10 or a recent version of other popular web browsers, you can upload files to OneDrive that are up to 2 GB in size.
If you use an older web browser, you can't upload files larger than 300 MB.

[Davidk]

I've created a OneDrive public folder with that 16 sec movie file in it. The owner name(?) is David Hains and the file name is
20140209_073723.mov.

However I have limited idea of how you might get access to it. There's a box to enter a facebook ID or email list for an invitation, but I don't have that data.

Davidk

[lata]

Hi David

click the folder to select it , then choose the Share option from the top menu

There should be an option to Get Link.
If you post that to the forum all should be able to see it and download the content, I think.