Preview display freezing while playing

[Davidk]

I have come across - the 1st time - a series of mpg video clips which, assembled into a project file on a 3rd party usb memory stick, irregularly freezes the preview image and sound while playing, usually in the 1st or 2nd clip in the file. Searching for a reason, I have played the file on two machines across both usb2 and usb3 connections, and using different versions of VS, and the freezing of the play occurs in all of them. At different places in successive events. The same thing happens with individual clips in VS, and individual clips in other video player software like media player and VLC.

I've no reason to believe that the software or even the files are causing this. At least, not yet. The only common element seemed to be the memory stick, so I copied the files from the 3rd party item to one I know is usb3, opened the project file and after re-linking, played it. Same thing happened in the 3rd clip. The results to date suggest that the player software (any of them) in doing the background data load from the memory stick at some point is taking too long, and thus the freeze. Which led me to review the file formats and size.

The freezing files are interesting - mpg format, but way bigger than I had expected for the duration involved. For example, one of the freezing ones is 1min18sec duration and 99,791Kb in size. Compared to a 51sec 22,224Kb file taken on a different camcorder. The duration versus size differences are substantial (for only a 27 sec duration difference the size difference is nearly 5 times), and one wonders why? Both of them loaded into VS show as MPEG-1 format on a right click properties display.

As far as I am aware, mpeg-1 is the same as avi format, and mpeg-2 and mpeg-4 are compressed and thus smaller versions of the same file length without loss of quality.

So, can anyone throw any light on why an mpg file should freeze during play in VS X6, X5, media player and VLC, on a desktop and a separate laptop machine?

Davidk

[lata]

Hi David

If you wish to rule out the USB device copy the files to the PC’s hard drive.

Mpeg1 is a very old format, the original mpeg.
Very low quality with probably a small frame size I used to burn VCD discs that used mpeg1 then Svcd discs that used mpeg2. They were burned to CD Discs as video discs were unavailable, that is they did not exist, and when they were first available for home use were to expensive.
How things change.

Anyway Video Studio was capable of rendering to Mpeg1 and burn VCD Discs, earlier versions of video studio allowed the user to set any Mpeg properties, now we can only set properties that confine to the industries standard DVD Pal or Ntsc., and that is mpeg2.
A bit of a backward step.

I have located one Mpeg1 file on my PC, a slide show 5 minutes long
It plays ok no problems.

We cannot create a mpeg1 template, however we can use Same as first Clip that will render to Mpeg1, Try that to see if converting the clip improves playback?

Your Mpeg1 video should play ok, maybe its non standard and VS is struggling, but you should have the codecs installed as its mpeg, and if VCL Player is struggling then there must be something odd with your video?

Are you able to make a sample available for download?, then I can try your clip on my pc.

Please right click your clip in the timeline and choose properties, what are they? post an image of the window

[Ken Berry]

Can you also give us the full Properties of the video files, please -- either by right clicking on one in VS and typing the Properties out here or uploading a screen grab of the Properties box.

As far as mpeg-1 being the same as .avi, you need first to consider what is an .avi... It is mainly a wrapper extension. More than 800 different formats use the .avi extension, yet they have widely different Properties. One or more of them may in fact be mpeg-1 -- I don't know. The original or "true" .avi is totally uncompressed and is huge -- running at more than 60 GB for one hour of video i.e. around 1 GB per minute. So even though you think your video is large, it is not as large as that, and is a further reason we need to know what your Properties are since sometimes the Properties box indicates that a different codec is used than one we usually find in VS. One codec, called Little Endian, has caused other users difficulties when it meets up with VS...

[Davidk]

One of the things that attracted me to file size and transfer performance - that on a re-read of the post I'd omitted to include - was that when the image froze, if one left it alone for several seconds the audio recommenced playing but the image was still frozen.

I've setup the vsp in question on the original usb stick (it's one of those verbatim units with a swiveling metal cover to protect the connector when not in use) in storyboard mode, and played one of the longer clips in it. Chose one of the longer clips (the 4th image in the storyboard sequence) to give murphy a chance to visit and get caught. And it froze while playing, and got caught.

First, the properties of the frozen clip

Second, the trapped screenshot of the frozen screen when it happened. It also shows - vertical line in the storyboard thumbnail - just how far into it the play was when that occurred

It also occurs to me that if this really is a large early mpeg-1 file, what's happening might be a similar situation to editing HD video clips (which I have not had any need to do) - re the size of those files and the need to use the proxy feature to do editing in any reasonable time frame. That is, activating the proxy feature might be a fix for the edit/preview freeze.

Trevor, even the smallest of these clips is large in megabytes terms. Close to 100Mb. On past experience using the miserable upload speeds even with Adsl2+ available here in the antipodes, that's going to take close to an hour to send. Maybe as a last resort?

Davidk

[lata]

Hi David

The image of the properties window is a little difficult to read, If you use Alt + PrtSc would copy the active window rather than the full desktop.
However there is sufficient detail to make out the properties.

My sample is 300 frames at 50 mb
Your sample shows 364 seconds at 307 Mb, as you mentioned a much larger file size than expected.

I suspect your data rate is quite high, maybe above the standard for Mpeg1.
This may be the reason for VS not reading the files efficiently, clearly your data rate only shows as “variable” where I would have expected a rate, for my sample it uses “1150 kbps constant”.

There is a program called MediaInfo that will read the correct properties of video files.

I would have to do a search regarding Mpeg1 data rates but from memory a VCD Disc max was about 1150kbps.

You may be best to convert the Mpeg1 to a more editable format.
Try using Video Studio Batch Convert to create a standard DVD Mpeg2 4:3

You will need to convert to mpeg2 in order to burn the files to disc, that's assuming that is your intent.

[Ken Berry]

I remain interested in where the video came from, using mpeg-1 in this day and age...! Is it from some capture device? If so, can you capture with some other format? Or did the video come from some other source e.g. an old VCD such as those which Trevor has referred to...?

[Davidk]

Thanks for the feedback guys. This (collecting history before it fades into the sunset) is an activity the movie class has been asked to do by the local U3A management.

Trevor,
I've tried re-rendering the clip which froze to an mpeg2 format (share/create video file/dvd/mpeg2) and the result was a much smaller file - 54Mb, about half the original. But when played in a new file space (open new project/insert video file/play) it still froze. This clip is just over 4 minutes long, and there are several others, totalling about 15 minutes, and the smallest is 1min18sec. That was the one I first noticed this effect on, and the one I initially cited data for.

So far I've focussed on the effects when using a usb stick because that's how the final one will be managed. But my next step in this is to copy files into the main machine and observe the effect when played from there.

Ken,
It is from a video camera, altho the previous project files we've used from it did not show this effect. The clips used from the same person (and I assume same camera, but will check) there were generally small (15-20Mb individually), and quite a few show in the explorer pane as mp4 files. So why it would generating mp1 files is anyone's guess, and hence the check.

The lady who generated the files says she took her camera to a specialist photo and video store to get it set up some months ago, and I've asked her to bring the camera+manual to class next week (wednesday) so I can find out what its output format spec options are, and what the camera is set up for.

Thanks for your patience,

Davidk

[lata]

Hi David

I would suspect that someone has converted the original cameras video to Mpeg1and maybe got the setting wrong?

Did you use the Media Info program to confirm the properties of the Mpeg1.?

There are other free Video Converters that you could try, Ken recommended Freemake Video Converter http://www.freemake.com/

I have just created a mpeg1 using Freemaker leaving the data rate as default.
4 minutes created a file of 157Mb using a Bit Rate of 5361kbps
The video plays ok on my pc?

Otherwise can you make a sample available?

[Davidk]

I haven't heard back from the student who recorded the video clips and created the project file, re questions I put to her late yesterday afternoon. More advice re that when I get it. However, I've done some further testing, result below, and a bit of further background that may explain some of what may seem my quirks in this activity.

Background
The movie class I tutor uses VS as the editor to compare student project publication, progress, or problems, exchanged via a usb stick. The place where the group meets has a large HD wall screen with HDMI interfaces, and as the tutor I use an HP Pavilion G6 laptop loaded with several versions of X6 and it has usb3 memory stick interfaces. I plug it in, attach the hdmi cable to use the wall screen so everyone in the room can easily see what is displayed, and run VS. So the method is to plug in a students project (on the usb stick as a packaged project), open the project file on it with VS, this year X6 but occasionally X5, and play it directly from the memory stick.

Done this way to save the time consumed in copying to an internal hard drive on the laptop for every problem or demo required. And up to now, there has never been a freezing file problem with a usb2 stick (every student in the class has several for this purpose, and with rare exceptions they are all usb2) in one of the laptop's usb3 interfaces. So I was rather non-plussed when one of these files froze when played from the original memory stick (initially on a desktop, but later tested on the laptop to verify repeatability) on that laptop (reported in an earlier post). Since then I have done the testing on a desktop to at least isolate what the cause might be.

First, clip properties. I downloaded the program suggested by Trevor and installed it on the desktop. This is the properties detail it displayed on a frozen clip, whose image I previously attached to the post:

Second, further test results.
From the original source usb stick, I opened the project file under X6. It opened OK, and I then packaged the project to an internal hard drive destination, not used by X6 as a program source (removes any disk access lags from the result). That packaging went Ok too.

Next, test 1.
File/new project to clear out the old details, and then File /open project file from the internal hdd package location, and played it. End to end, 6 clips, no freezes.

Test 2.
After that encouraging result from an internal hdd, loaded that particular project file in to VS and re-packaged it to a known usb3 memory stick. I wanted to test it on the laptop fully utilising the faster usb 3 interface, and for that I needed a usb3 memory stick. (I only have one and every time I plug it in on the desktop, I get a message from the OS saying I could get faster performance if I used a usb3 connection. Ordinarily, that's not a problem. However, this project file and video clips played from that usb3 stick via a usb2 computer interface port froze when I first tried it). Thus the intent was to create a new package from a known 'not-freezing' package on an internal drive to a usb3 memory stick.

Took that memory stick to the laptop and inserted into a usb3 port, booted it, started VS and then opened the project file from the usb3 memory. Played it. No freezes, end to end.

So, it seems 2 factors I have not previously experienced affect this:
- size of recorded video clip file . We've talked about the mpeg-1 result, and if there is any useful additional detail I can extract using mediainfo on one of the freezing clips, please advise.
- speed of file transfer to VS. The working folder on the internal hdd test1 ran from has an IDE4 interface, but just about everything else on the desktop is on sata3 drives. The effective speed of the memory stick/interface port combination is also a major factor - a usb3 stick restricted to usb2 speeds by the port interface is just not fast enough for the file sizes involved (it plays Ok for a while but clearly the accumulating lag in obtaining data piles up and when the data for display reaches the point where the display finds no updated data, the preview freezes), whereas a usb3 stick running on a laptop usb3 port is fine.

Establishing why the camcorder generated those large mpeg-1 files in the first place seems to be the next thing to do.

Davidk

[canuck]

So basically what you have is:
-a video project (including all source files, etc) on a USB3 stick
-when you "play" the project through a USB3 port, everything works
-when you "play" the project through a USB2 port, it freezes.
-when you "play" the project via hard drive, everything works.

I have several USB3 sticks as well as USB3 ports on my laptop. So I will try to duplicate your project and see if I get the same freezing. Of course I do not have the same videos that you have so that might give different results.

I am curious. Are the packed project sizes different on the hard drive and on the USB3 stick?
Have you tried a test using a USB2 stick?

[Davidk]

Canuck,

Interesting. The video clip files are the same - on the original usb stick, and on the hdd folder. However, the project files are not. The vsp on the original memory stick is 1268Kb, and the project file in the package on the hdd is only 66Kb. I wonder why ...

re the 2nd query - I don't understand your thinking: if a usb2 stick in a usb3 port doesn't work, what is to be gained by repeating that?

Davidk

[Davidk]

Update after class, Wed 20 Nov 13.

The camera used to take the video clips affected by this was a Sony DSC-H50. One of the Cybershot models. It's a nominally a still photo camera with a video recording capability. According to the manual I accessed on-line, the only video recording mode on it is MPEG-1. So the only real alternative to get a smaller source video file size is to use a newer camera with an mpeg-2 or even mpeg-4 capability. The memory module is an MS memory duo (or similar name). So the recording clips were onto that duo stick first, copied via a multi-connector card reader to a laptop and listed in an X6 vsp. Said vsp was then packaged to the usb memory stick, which glitched when played on both my machines.

The other part of this is the memory stick interface. Is there any means (software) of determining what the usb interface of an attached stick is? I've prowled around the device manager pages of 2 computers looking for some indication of this, to no avail. I know what the port capability of both machines is, because the tech data on each one is available. However, even with a known usb3 memory stick (spec/interface marked on the device connector slide) connected, the system does not display anything more than "usb". The glitching item I have assumed to be usb2 (indeed, any other usb memory stick I have over a range of Kingston, Lexar and Imation units) - there is nothing marked on the device at all, except a brand and capacity size. I've begun wondering if in fact that (usb2) assumption could be in error. The capacity (16Gb) is clearly in the range of usb2 or later (early v1 devices generally were not much bigger than 500mb), but . . . . . murphy is alive and visits often.


Davidk

[Davidk]

I've found tools to tell me what interface an attached USB stick and port are, and even using a usb3 stick on a usb3 port, I still get pauses in display performance using VS and video files being read from (a smart package on) the usb memory.

So I cast further afield to the processor (an AMD dual core 2.7Ghz device with 4gb RAM) and even turning off the WiFi connection (at the best of times, a slow party line link that could be the source of process delays) did not improve things much.

Then I looked again at the VS X6 performance preference settings and that is the source of the next query in this story. There are 4 hardware acceleration settings under the Preferences/performance tab, but only the Edit item is checked on by default. Turning on any or all of the others gets a performance warning message as shown in this image:

And the questions that arise from this:
1. Why are there 2 identical hardware acceleration items for file creation?
2. If having them all turned on gives optimum performance, why is Edit checked on the only default?

Davidk

[Davidk]

Delete query 1 from the last post - my eyes were just not reading encoding and decoding correctly. mea culpa
Davidk

[Ken Berry]

2. If having them all turned on gives optimum performance, why is Edit checked on the only default?

Quite a lot of people don't have hardware/graphics cards which allow acceleration, so there is no point in setting the other items to accelerate by default. Rather, it is left to the user to decide whether their hardware will allow acceleration, and to enable the boxes they want.

The question most often arises with CUDA and NVidia cards, though we have just learned in another thread that VS appears to only work with CUDA versions 2 and 3 whereas NVidia has since then released quite a few updates which apparently don't work with VS, and so those boxes are not checked and greyed out/inactive. Obviously a big boo-boo on Corel's part...