UFF or Frame Based for HD Footage burned to DVD ?

[moshe]

Hello everyone, as always,an honor to be here amongst you guys. My question is simple but I want to make sure my answer is correct.

When you are burning HD footage (video type H.264, Upper Field First) to a DVD, do I keep the project input and output on UPPER FIELD FIRST? Or am I supposed to change both to FRAME BASED?

This is what I know:

SD is Lower Field First
HD is Upper Field First
"Still Photos" is Frame based

I had a videographer tell me today that to burn HD to a DVD i'm supposed to use FRAME BASED. And HD to a BLUE RAY disc is UPPER FIELD FIRST.

I thought Frame Based was only for Slideshows.

I'm currently using Corel VideoStudio Pro X4 Ultimate
NTSC drop frame (29.97 fps)
MPEG files
24 bits, 720 x 480, 29.97 fps
Upper Field First
(DVD-NTSC), 16:9
Video data rate: 8000 kbps
Audio data rate: 128 kbps
Dolby Digital Audio, 48 KHz, 2/0(L,R)

Thanks

[lata]

Hi
and welcome to the forums

DV-Avi video uses Lower Field, not many other formats will use Lower Field
Converting Dv-Avi to Mpeg3 should use lower Field

All other types "analogue"and "HD" generally use UpperField
HD can also be progressive using Frame Based

For your video output you should use the same as the original video.

However there should be no problems in converting interlaced to frame based

hope that helps

[moshe]

Thanks Lata.
After I finish editing I'll experiment with UFF and then FB (frame based) and see what comes out better. One more question, if a person was editing with both SD and HD footage mixed together what field order should they use? I'm guessing if they have more SD footage, then LFF should be used. Or if they have mostly HD footage then UFF or FB should be used.

[Ken Berry]

I'm guessing if they have more SD footage, then LFF should be used. Or if they have mostly HD footage then UFF or FB should be used.

No, that is not quite the case. Most SD footage these days is UFF, as is most HD footage. The only real exception in the SD area is, as lata explained, DV/AVI footage which uses LFF. But these days, DV camcorders (which use mini DV tape cassettes) are almost the exception to the rule. All other SD camcorders use either an internal hard drive, a card drive or even a mini DVD drive. And all these use UFF.

In the HD field, you have only UFF or Frame Based/Progressive camcorders (which can usually also film in UFF depending on the setting you use). Even HDV camcorders, which use the same mini DV cassettes as SD DV/AVI cameras, nevertheless film in UFF mpeg-2.

So the real answer to your question is to always check the field order of the SD before you mix it with HD footage. It is more likely than not to be UFF (unless you use a DV/AVI camcorder). If so, it will mix perfectly well with HD footage. If however, the SD footage is LFF, you have a difficult decision to make if you mix it with UFF HD footage since one or the other will have defects in the final output, usually in the form of combing in horizontal pans, and jagged vertical lines... So you would need to assess whether you could accept this and use the field order of what makes up most of your footage.

I guess, personally, if I had LFF footage to mix with HD footage, I would convert the former to Frame Based before mixing.

As a footnote, I see you used this phrase: "what frame base should they use?" To avoid confusion, while I understand what you meant, the correct term in this context is "field order" rather than "frame base". That will avoid confusion with "Frame Based" SD or "Progressive" (Frame Based HD) footage.

[moshe]

Thanks Ken.
Sorry about that, I did mean "field order" and not "frame base" earlier, I just corrected it
Thanks for your reply I will try that. One more question, I promise: For a wedding with lots of dancing and fast movement, would you recommend the project to be burned in the Constant or Variable for the "Video data rate"(which will be kept on 8000kps) ? I think its Constant

UPDATE:
I just burned 2 sample dvds. One set to UFF and the other set to FB to see which was clearer.
I found the UFF DVD had very small horizontal lines running through the bride and groom.
The FB DVD had no horizontal lines and appeared clearer.
All the clips were HD, UFF.
Is this ok because I'm always reading to keep the field order the same as the original Footage?

[moshe]

I forgot to mention that before my experiment, I ran the original clips into a slow-motion program called TWIXTOR, The original footage was changed to H.264 aka mp4.
I'm sorry, I just remembered right now
I don't know if this changes anything.

After my slow-motion intro, I resume to original footage.

[Ken Berry]

Regarding those small horizontal lines, it depends what you play back the video on. I get similar artefacts when I play back HD footage on my computer monitor (which is full HD 1920 x 1080). But when I play the same video on my Blu-Ray player/HDTV sety-up there are no lines. So if you can test your footage in a similar way, you will then be able to make up your mind which is better... Does your DVD player or TV have a USB input?

As for CBR vs VBR, it will again depend on how long your project is. If it is close to an hour, or just over it, using VBR will perhaps give you just a little more space to fit more in since in effect the program works out which bits of the video require a higher rate (i.e. the fast dancing bits) and which require lower bitrates (e.g. people sitting at tables and not moving much). But equally, using CBR at 8000 kbps will allow a full hour of video to be burned to a single layer DVD at high quality.

As for H.264/mp4, it is of course high def mpeg-4, and would normally, I imagine be UFF -- though you might want to right click on one of the Twixtor clips in the VS timeline and check its Properties, just in case it is Frame Based. But either way, it should convert down to DVD-compatible mpeg-2 the same way as any other HD footage.

[moshe]

Thanks for your response Ken,I just tried both versions on a:

*Computer monitor(2010)
*60" DLP TV (2009).....DVD/Non-HDMI
*30" LCD TV (2012).....Blue Ray Player/HDMI

I seen the fine horizontal lines on all of them when I played the UFF DVD.
The Frame based DVD came out beautiful on all 3.

The blue-ray player connected to the LCD TV has the USB port.

[Ken Berry]

Well, I guess that answers your question as to which field order you should use!!

[moshe]

Thanks for your time. I really appreciate You and Lata's answers from this post and my past posts. I think you guys are awesome and I always leave each post with a sense of happiness and relief.
May God bless all of you guys for helping me and everyone else with questions

Moshe

[lata]

Hi Moshe

You mentioned converting the original footage using Twixtor, why did you do that?
Generally you should retain the original interlacing in your final output.

A standard DVD has to use Mpeg2, this is the format burned to disc.

Converting the original to MP4 is pointless as they will be converted to Mpeg2 prior to burning the disc. These additional conversions will impact on quality.

If you wish to convert the original footage then Mpeg2 format should be used if you are burning a SD DVD.

Can you provide the properties of the original video clips, right click a clip in the timeline and select properties, what are they?
Take a screen shot of the window, create an image and attach to your post.
Tell us which camera was used to record the footage, maybe other users will have the same camera and suggest the best workflow/approach to burning a DVD.

And finally please confirm that you are burning a standard DVD and not a Bluray disc.

[moshe]

Hi Lata.

I only used TWIXTOR to add a slowmotion effect to several scenes of the bride and groom.

What I do is put all the clips that I like on the Corel timeline and create a video file. Share> Create Video File> Same as First Video Clip.
When the file is made I run it through Twixtor (inside Adobe After Effects) and it adds beautiful slow motion like the kind you see in sport replays.
I cant get VideoStudio to replicate that same effect through its "speed" control. After the slowmotion effect is applied to the clip adobe after FX (Ae) tells me what format do I want to save the file, so I chose H.264 to match the original clip. Then I go back to VideoStudio and put that new clip on the timeline and add it into the wedding highlight intro. When i'm done with editing all the HD wedding footage to burn to dvd I go to Share> Create Disc> DVD> Create DVD Folders. Then I make sure the output is the same as the Project Properties in the intro. Then I hit Burn. When that's finished I go to Nero and burn the file to DVD. For Corel and Nero I ended up selecting Frame based for the HD wedding to be burned to DVD, not Blue Ray, my customers ask for dvd.

In adobe Ae/Twixtor should I have selected a different output like AVI, or Quicktime, I'm more of a rookie when it comes to this part of the editing

My settings in Corel are:

NTSC drop frame (29.97 fps)
MPEG files
24 bits, 720 x 480, 29.97 fps
Frame-based
(DVD-NTSC), 16:9
Video data rate: 8000 kbps
Audio data rate: 128 kbps
Dolby Digital Audio, 48 KHz, 2/0(L,R)

My Video camera is a Panasonic HMC-150

file format....ntsc hdmv
video type ....h.264 video,Upper Field First
frame rate....29.970frames per sec
variable bit rate

[Ken Berry]

In adobe Ae/Twixtor should I have selected a different output like AVI, or Quicktime

No. If the original footage from your camera is HD H.264 and the rest of the footage in the project is h.264, then selecting a similar output from Twixtor would be what I would do too.

But lata's point is a valid one. By international standard, all DVDs use SD mpeg-2. And if you are only making DVDs, and you are converting video from another format in order to burn a DVD, whether in VS or Twixtor or any other program, then the obvious choice would be DVD-compatible SD mpeg-2.

So if Twixtor offers DVD/mpeg-2 output, you could also go that way. It's just that since all the rest of your footage is HD mpeg-4 (H.264) and is going to have to be down-converted to DVD-compatible mpeg-2, then having the slow-motion clips retain their HD mpeg-4 character as part of an entire project which is going to have to be converted seems logical. As lata says, though, with lossy formats, which include all forms of mpeg, repeated conversions cause loss of quality. But since the slow-motion clips in HD are a much higher quality than SD mpeg-2, then one extra conversion is unlikely to produce any visible degradation in quality.

[moshe]

Ok thanks!

[Dexter]

Great topic

When you create a "dvd folder" that's framebased then go to nero to burn it should the settings in nero also be set to framebased?

Assuming that my corel project setting and footage is the same as moshe's.