X6 - Workspace colour and other gripes...

[sheilsoft]

Folks,

I have been using Paintshop Pro for more years than I care to mention, and have always updated to new versions as they are released. Partly because I write a set of scripts (Sheilsoft), and I want to check they are compatible, but mainly because I wish to see a progression in the tools feature set, and their quality and accuracy, so I can continue to use PSP as my main photographic post-processing software.

I must say that version X5 was getting very close to what I needed, and was/am happy to use it, with limited excursions into other apps to do certain tasks 'better'.

I have just updated my PC system to a fast 64 bit one, due to moving about fairly hefty photo files from 24 MP DSLRs, and was getting bored waiting for PC and PSP to catch up or render certain actions. The new faster PC does the trick as far as file handling, but reverting to a 32bit PSP still tends to be the weak link. I was therefore delighted to see this new 64 bit version released, and mostly it does 'process' faster.

However, a few problems and unnecessary changes to the interface are apparent though, maybe due to a speedy release. I would hope that a review team will take note of any issues raised on this forum, and release an initial quick update to at least take care of some of the quick fix items.

My first comment is about the workspace. PSP's main strength IMHO is the clean, uncluttered, intuitive interface. This has evolved over many versions culminating in a great, clean & crisp interface in version X5.

Firstly, in X6, adjusting width and positioning of any palettes at times creates over-running lines, with 'dirty' edges displaying artefacts and partial icons. The Tool palette now overruns the bottom of my screen when using large icons (doesn't in X5). This is just sloppy, and needs to be fixed.

When I select Light Gray as my Workspace Color (by the way, I bought the 'English' Language version from Corel UK... It's about time you actually used the UK English language for this version... GREY, COLOUR)... anyway, I digress... When I select Light GREY... Everything changes to grey... apart from a pointless dark grey surround to the main work area... and you've decided to keep the main top menubar and status bar dark grey! Also with the lighter grey, the palette edges issue looks more pronounced.

Choosing a light colour for your workspace, but still having a menubar and status bar in dark grey is distracting, and just looks... naff!

More worrying though, is that the main work area is now coloured light grey also, which is a severe error of judgement IMHO. The main interface should be a separate visual component, with the main work area left darker, so the focus can be on the loaded image. With a completely light coloured interface, everything just bleeds into each other, giving a tiring 'snow blind' effect after a while. The main work area should remain Dark Grey when Light Grey workspace is selected. PLEASE... change back to X5 Light Grey interface... it was/is great!

One of my main gripes over the years has been the inability to latch onto 3rd party plugins. With this version I was truly hoping to add some great plugins to PSP. I use a number of plugins for certain effects, and have to dip into Photoshop solely to use these plugins. The main plugins I use though are within the Nik suite, mostly Color Efex Pro 4 & Silver Efex Pro 2, which are a must. As reported previously, when installed, PSP X6 can access them and allow you to work within them, but when exiting back to PSP, it hangs, and PSP becomes 'not responding', requiring a shutdown via Task Manager. NOT good enough! Please spend some considerable time to fix this properly. Being able to access and interact seamlessly with third party plugins would make Paintshop truly PRO.

The other area where more work needs to be done is the RAW conversion dialog and general rendering of images. I've read elsewhere of issues where colours are rendered differently from other graphics engines, particularly own brand raw conversion software. I haven't checked this out personally as yet with my files, and comparing output from various software... but if this is the case, this is a very serious issue, and will quickly turn photographers away from the product. Resolution and colour/contrast accuracy is priority 1.

The Raw conversion dialog is looking very dated now, with a limited feature set. there should at least be an Exposure compensation slider, and separate Shadows & Highlights sliders. Adobe does this SO much better and accurately with ACR and Lightroom. I now use Lightroom to do my initial exposure and conversion tweaks, save as Tif them Edit in PSP. Wouldn't it be wonderful to have as powerful and accurate a RAW front-end in PSP?

I'll leave it at that for now. Don't take this as a big negative post... I REALLY like PSP... But, please sort out these glitches soon, and I'll ditch X5 and move onto X6 with some confidence. Keep up the good work!

Rgds,
Howard Dickson

[LeviFiction]

You can change the workspace background colour around the image. Right-click on it and select from one of three states. Not much but might help with just one of those complaints.

[sheilsoft]

Hmm...

This only works when in 'Tabbed Documents' mode or image is expanded.

Why would you change this from previous version? I often work in Non tabbed view with various images open. Images view clearer with dark background. Doesn't make sense... please revert, or make it a Workspace option for All views, Tabbed or unTabbed.

Also, I've just noticed that the very top of the screen with the Corel Paintshop Pro X6 banner, and the 3 Manage, Adjust, Edit tabs, is much deeper, eating into precious screen real estate. Do we really need the top banner so deep? It seems that the Minimise, Maximise & Exit buttons are sitting higher than the top of the tabs, creating extra dead space across the top, and the product banner is a larger font. Again, please bring back to X5 dimensions!

See attached images below that show interface differences...

Rgds,
Howard

[MarkZ]

. . .
The Raw conversion dialog is looking very dated now, with a limited feature set. there should at least be an Exposure compensation slider, and separate Shadows & Highlights sliders. Adobe does this SO much better and accurately with ACR and Lightroom. I now use Lightroom to do my initial exposure and conversion tweaks, save as Tif them Edit in PSP. Wouldn't it be wonderful to have as powerful and accurate a RAW front-end in PSP?

I'll leave it at that for now. Don't take this as a big negative post... I REALLY like PSP... But, please sort out these glitches soon, and I'll ditch X5 and move onto X6 with some confidence. Keep up the good work!

Rgds,
Howard Dickson

Have you tried Corel AfterShot Pro? It does a decent job of editing and converting Raw files with lots of room for customization at a low price. I gave up on PSP for this a long time ago because of poor quality and what to me is flakey editing. Have not tried Lightroom but the program seems to be the standard (like Photoshop) for most photographers.

[sheilsoft]

Thanks Mark, but I don't want to give up on PSP, as I actually like it a lot!

I just want to get some of the bugs out of the latest version, and hopefully get it to interface properly with 3rd party plugins, AND upgrade their RAW conversion accuracy at some point in the near future. Presumably, if they can do it better in Aftershot Pro, then they can migrate that into Paintshop?

BTW Lightroom 5 is excellent! Sorry Corel... it just is.

Rgds,
Howard

[Rick Champagne]

Hi Howard,

Thank you very much for this great feedback. I will share it with the team this week. 64-bit was a major undertaking for us and one that has proven to be extremely worthwhile. Due to the nature of the project and the demand from our customers, it had to be the primary focus. The UI Refinement for this release has really helped the default look of PaintShop Pro, but it is just the first step. Regarding the user interface, we are currently working on a maintenance release and intend on bringing back the middle grey that some people have been asking for. I will also have our Senior User Experience Designer review this thread to help determine what else we might bring into that release. Separately, our UI Refinement project is one that will span multiple releases and will address things such as the RAW Lab dialog box that you mentioned. We have a similar list of gripes too...

Again, thank you for this great feedback. Consider it heard and in for review.

Best Regards,

Rick

[sheilsoft]

Rick,

Thanks for your swift response to my hopefully constructive criticism. I look forward to the forthcoming maintenance release where some of these issues will be resolved, and the continuing improvements from the team.

Best regards,
Howard

[photodrawken]

Given the outstanding (and free) RAW Therapee program, whatever PSP, or PSE, or Lightroom, or Photoshop offer in the way of a RAW editor is irrelevant.

[Joelle]

Great to see you here Howard!
I agree very much on the User Interface, but as the first Service Pack hasn't appeared yet, I live in hope.

I hope you are doing well and still loving Spain

Joëlle

[sheilsoft]

Sure, as a free piece of software, Therapee is very good. What we're trying to achieve here though is high quality RAW conversion integrated into PSP, and if I did want to use an external program for conversion, prior to using PSP, I would be using Nikon Capture or Adobe Lightroom 5 to get the best available from my RAW files. Nikon Capture because it will return the most accurate image derived from Nikon RAW files, and Lightroom because of its flexibility and ability to squeeze and shape the RAW data.

Other people may have different priorities, this is mine.

Rgds,
Howard

[photodrawken]

What we're trying to achieve here though is high quality RAW conversion integrated into PSP

That's what I fail to see as necessary. Because all of PSP's tools, adjustments and layers operate on 16bpp images, the sooner you get your image into PSP's editing window, the better. Having a separate little RAW editing dialog doesn't make much sense for PSP. The separate RAW editing dialog is an artifact that's only appropriate for programs like PhotoshopElements which don't have much (if any) support for 16bpp images.

RAW Therapee is still, as far as I know, the only RAW image processing application using real-time 32-bit floating point processing. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that Lightroom allows modifying images using the L*a*b* colour space, (among the amazing number of other options available in RT).

Not to get into a debate about RT vs. Lightroom, the question remains that if one has found a RAW image processing program one likes, why bother with a separate RAW image dialog in PSP?

[LeviFiction]

Photoshop uses the same base RAW conversion engine as Lightroom. In fact it incorporates many of Lightroom's own functions without doing a full replacement for Lightroom. By incorporating the base engine (and yes I know this would not be easy as they are two very different code bases) from ASP into PSP they could allow people just getting started with RAW a decent RAW conversion experience without having to deal with a pipeline setup.

Pipelines are great when you have them, but annoying to setup when you're just getting started. It allows for an ease-in approach.

Now, Howard has his own reasons. But I believe that incorporating the better base RAW system into PSP would give it a leg-up especily with new people who may be intimidated by full RAW editing options. And so long as they don't totally tank ASP, by making that direct link between the two Corel could help themselves by promoting ASP as being responsible to the decent results in PSP, provoking people to try to get even better results from the full ASP program.

[photodrawken]

But I believe that incorporating the better base RAW system into PSP would give it a leg-up especily with new people who may be intimidated by full RAW editing options.

I think we're agreeing.

The way I see it is like this:
There are two components to processing RAW files -- converting the data into a viewable image and adjusting that viewable image.

Converting the image can be done automatically (based on the camera-specific profile) before displaying the image in the PSP editing area, as is done now with the RAW editing dialog.

Any RAW adjustments one would want should be incorporated directly into the PSP adjustments. For example, think of any RAW adjustments you do in a separate RAW editing dialog because you think they're better than the currently built-in PSP adjustments --
Sharpening? Improve the slew of sharpening adjustments in PSP.
Noise Reduction? Improve the existing NR functions in PSP.
White Balance? Improve the PSP WB function.
And so on.

If, in fact, those RAW adjustments are better than what's currently offered in PSP (and I'm not convinced that they are in every case) then having them in PSP directly will benefit everyone, even those shooting in JPG.

Of course, those who prefer more RAW adjustments as offered in their RAW processor of choice (whether it's RT, or Lightroom, or ASP) will always use those programs first in their workflow, anyway. And the people new to shooting RAW images will not be intimidated, since the adjustments would be in the PSP editing area and the same regardless of the type of image they're working with. If a user progresses to the point where they want even more adjustments, those additional RAW processing programs will always be an option.

[sheilsoft]

I think most graphics applications that handle RAW files have kept the conversion process as a separate entity because a) it's easier to update camera profiles as they are released, without a full app update, and more importantly b) it allows the photographer to make accurate adjustments using RAW data PRIOR to conversion to a restrictive file format and/or colour gamut within Tif, Png or Jpg. The whole point of camera profiles within the RAW conversion process is that different brands and models render colour, white balance, sharpness etc slightly differently. Trying to integrate this process into the main body of PSP would overly complicate the program for those who don't require that level of RAW adjustment.

Just a bit of work required to bring the RAW lab dialog up to date with current competitors and in line with the new 16 bit version.

On a different note... Isn't it about time PSP ditched some of the truly outdated, and frankly useless textures and effects which are a hangover from VERY early versions (straw? Leather?) and introduce some really useful add on effects such as a genuinely hir res canvas and paper texture tool within which you can make adjustments based on hi res images, not little squares which loose all definition when expanded to cover large images. Also, it would be very useful to add a suite of layer backgrounds such as daguerreotypes and faded, grunge, textures, metals. Even Photoshop doesn't have a decent canvas tool, still using the original Texturizer, which is limited... Just a thought!

Rgds,
Howard

[photodrawken]

Like I keep saying, one can't make any adjustments before seeing an actual image, anyway. Wherever that image is being viewed, it's already been placed in a colour space, even though it has not been converted to a specific file format. And an adjustment to a 16bpp image is an adjustment to a 16bpp image, whether that adjustment happens in a superfluous RAW editing dialog or in the main PSP editing area.

There's no "new 16 bit version", but since the RAW image is already being demosaiced for viewing in the RAW dialog box (and that process is therefore already integrated into PSP), it ought to happen directly in the PSP editing area.