Overlay Track: Jagged Edges in Animations with Green Screen?

Jmadl · Post by **Jmadl** » Sun Jul 14, 2013 7:34 pm

VS6 Ultimate
Windows 7

I am trying to render some small animated clips to be used as overlays in home movies. I am animating in a program called Poser. I animate 30 to 60 second clips rendering them over a green background (0 blue, 0 red, 255 green) and output them in Uncompressed AVI at 1280x720.
When I bring them into VS6 they look great on track 1 but when I put them onto an overlay track they suddenly 'go small'; I right click and change to 'Project Size' (which I have set to 16:9) and apply the Chroma Key; this is where I begin to get the Jagged Edge effect? Especially on anything with a straight edge - for example: I have a Skull and Crossed Swords that I want to spin 360 - the sword edges become so horribly jagged, it just is not acceptable.

However, still using Poser as my 3D rendering engine, I can render a still and save out as a PNG and it will import into VS6 and overlay (as a Still) just fine.
I did try rendering Each Frame of the spinning skull as PNGs and assemble the animation in VS6 and again I ended up with the jagged edges...even if this did work it would not be do-able with my 6sec clip of a waving flag (too many frames!)

Is there something I am overlooking? Perhaps my AVI aspect size to VS6?
I notice that while in VS6 I am working in only 720x480 however my final target is to burn to DVD in Wide Screen (I also would like to have MPG and/or AVI to play direct from computer on home entertainment system to TV)

A little background: I do historic reenacting at various events, shows, parties, Tall Ship events, Ren Fairs, and such. The overlays I want for various use: Title effects, overlay photos/videos within the project. Video files come from my Sony HDR-CX430V, photos from Canon SD790IS.

Post by **lata** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:36 pm

Hi

Standard Definition DVD size for NTSC is 720 x 480, the frames are anamorphic and are stretched to form a 16:9 shape.

The jagged edges seem to be an interlacing issue.
Your video will be using Frame Based, at least I would have thought that.
Video Studio default project properties will use upper field. Change the project properties to use Mpeg Frame Based

When you convert the video/render make sure you use Frame Based.
Share Create Video File – Same as project properties, will create a file suitable to burn a disc.

Your clips, video or images? what are the properties of your clips?
With the clips in the timeline , right click and choose properties, what are they?
Create an image of the window to attach to your post.

Jmadl · Post by **Jmadl** » Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:24 am

Don't see an upload for screen but here is what I have:

Format: Miscrosoft AVI files-- OpenDML
Data rate: 40500.00 kbps
Compression: Uncompressed
Attributes: 32 bits, 720x480

my bad, the spinning skull and waving flag are both 720x480, it was my last one (speaking skull) that I rendered out larger thinking to solve the issue.

I tried what you said with Frame Base. It all actually works pretty well - IF - I build the overlay from scratch.
I think I left this part out earlier: Poser crashes with large files so I have to render them out as 30-50 frame segments - I was wanting to assemble them as one in VS6 for later use. I just played a bit and find that they do render pretty good IF I build it all and render out ONCE. Problem seems to creep in when I then try to used a Saved MPG into my actual project (reproductive degeneration of sorts I guess you could say - copy of a copy)

Perhaps that is my only issue? No way to assemble my 30, 50, and 100 segments into single files to use later; I have to build it once each time to keep resolution?

I hope I was clear?
example: I render out 30 clips from Poser, each 30 frames long. Then try to use VS6 to render them all into a single 900 frame clip to use as an overlay in various projects.

Post by **lata** » Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:16 am

Hi

Not sure I fully understand what is happening here.
1 / upload screen shots using the Attachments option, scroll to the bottom of your the window when writing your post (limited to 256Kb files)

2 / Are you able to use Poser to create one image for each frame. Then import the images to VS, set their duration to one frame and render to a video file.

3 / When you render using VS you should use Custom or make Movie Template Manager to use Frame Based

4 / are you able to use Poser you create other video formats, maybe Mpeg2?
That’s the format required to burn a dvd, ultimately you will convert to mpeg2.
This will overcome the large file sizes created by raw Avi (65Gb per hour), or compress the Avi file?

5 / Are you able to upload your Skull video to any sharing software, we can then download to try the video on our system
Upfordown – Media fire and 4Shared are some that have been used.

Jmadl · Post by **Jmadl** » Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:44 am

1) Sorry, I see it now

2) Yes, I have tried rendering each frame as PNG and it did give only slightly better result - however to do the whole clip the flag is over 2,000 frames and the spinning skull is about 1200 frames....a REAL PAIN!

3) I tried a couple settings including "Same as project properties", I had not tried Custom - I am not familiar with Movie Template Manager; dont see it, is it in VS6?

4) Yes, Poser will do MPG and a few others, I had not tried that as I thought that would be starting out with a lower quality file...I will give it a shot!

5) Here is my latest attempt; a talking skull with crossed blunderbusses I rendered in VS6 using the "Same as project Properties" - for this one I wanted to edit in a muzzle flash FX at each of the spots he stops speaking - it was 15 clips of 2sec each rendered from Poser as AVI Uncompressed:
http://www.mediafire.com/download/8n8d4 ... _Chest.mpg

And here is one of the 8 clips from Poser (in AVI Uncompressed) that makes up the spinning skull (to upload it all I would have to do later, its late here and total is 304meg):
http://www.mediafire.com/download/eakbu ... ull001.avi

I have never used MediaFire before (used to have my own server spot from a friend but he is gone now). I just set the account up, let me know if it lets you download, if not I will have to look into it tomorrow night after work. Oh, and THANKS for all our assistance!!

And here is one I did NOT with Poser, it came out fairly well. I rendered the skull in CrazyTalk7 Pro with green screen background; the swords where rendered in Poser as PNG. The skull again was done as AVI Uncompressed and this time its not too jagged...perhaps my issue is the Poser rendering engine?? I should run this by that crowed (note: I have worked with Poser for almost two decades now, they can sometimes be an unruly lot to work with - the general community that is) - FaceBook compressed it quite a bit, to be expected:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10 ... 8665584393

Post by **lata** » Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:48 am

Hi
Media fire worked fine………

I have not used Poser but just viewed their web site, the program looks very impressive, I would not have thought it would produce poor jagged video???
It does appear to create a video to the final output so why are you using Video Studio to finish the video?

Your Mpeg video rendered as Same as Project Settings is using interlacing Upper Field First, you should change that to Frame Based, that may help with the jagged edges.

NTSC drop frame (29.97 fps)
MPEG files
24 bits, 720 x 480, 29.97 fps
Frame-based
(DVD-NTSC), 16:9
Video data rate: 8000 kbps (Constant bit rate)
Audio data rate: 256 kbps
Dolby Digital Audio, 48 KHz, 2/0(L,R)

Other render options
With the AVI as first clip in the timeline,
Share Create video File –Same as First Clip will render to the project using the video files properties.
But as said if you wish to burn a DVD then Mpeg2 has to be used at some point, the settings above would be suitable.

Can you upload the png “crossed blunderbusses” images to media fire, I can add to Video Studio and try to render without those jagged edges.

Jmadl · Post by **Jmadl** » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:29 am

The reason I am 'assembling' the clips in VS instead of rendering out the whole thing in Poser is because Poser really Sucks as an animation output engine. It does good for rendering stills but crashes and freezes when rending much more then 50 to 100 frames of movie output - Soooo, I render what ever it can handle into tiny clips then put them together in VS; or at least that was my hope.

ie: the Spinning Skull for example I had to break down the full 360 degree turn into 8 small clips of around 60 frames each (of which you have seen #1 posted to MediaFire)

Yes it would be ideal if I could just render out the whole animation as one file then use it as an overlay in VS, as I did with the singing skull (one posted on FaceBook), that worked great!
And as I said; if I take all 8 clips of the spinner and bring them into VS then I can render a good overlay IF it is direct into my target footage (output MPG for burning to DVD) however that greatly reduces possible effects (fade in/out, etc) as the beginning and ending clips are so short, plus to have it 'spin' several times I end up having to handle many more tiny clips (looks a bit messy), where I was hoping to do that just once to save myself a usable 10 second clip that I could put aside to add at later dates and just cut as required for the project at hand.

And this is where my jaggy edges come in; when using VS to render out (Share) the file for later usage as one longer file.

The PNGs import and render great, but like I said it takes over 1000 to do one full clip (the Blunderbuss one is 1128 frames in all). I have not rendered those out in PNG (would take a few days with my limited time available) and I did not keep all the Spinning cross sword PNGs from my attempt to go that way either - BUT, I do have all the Spinning Cross Swords AVI files (8 total including the 1 already on Media Fire) I can upload those so you can see (I have the blunderbuss AVI files too but all them are over 3Gig, the Swords are only 315meg and they show the Jaggy Edges much more then the blunderbuss do)

Give me a bit to get them all up and I will post the rest of the links tonight (I only have DSL here, not T1, and I pay for the 'economy' package at AT&T at that)

Jmadl · Post by **Jmadl** » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:53 am

Looks like this will take a bit longer then I thought: MediaFire is having some fits uploading 7 files at once...Hopefully I will have them posted by morning.

I will also try the output settings you posted above as well. Plus I will try to render from Poser again as MPG and see if that helps (it might be able to handle a longer file that way too).
But at the moment I have some people anxiously waiting for me to get the a project I just took on last weekend: I have over 3hours of footage and 150 photos to go through from the Fort MacArthur event (San Pedro, CA) - build a story board, build an into title, ending credits, and rumage through my music for some suitable backgrounds - then there's the Day Job...oh, what do I get myself into?!? (and my girlfriend wonders why I stay up so late...10 or 11 isn't late is it? after all, I don't get up until 4 in the morning!??)

Post by **lata** » Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:25 am

Hi

I have used 12 AVI clips, reversing every alternate one and rendered to Mpeg2
The resultant video looks good to me.
I have created a Smart Package of the project this also contains the new 12 second Mpeg2 video placed on the overlay track for convenience.

Given that you have a slow connection I have uploaded two files had trouble with Media Fire so used UpforDown

The “12 avi only.VSP”, this is small at 2 KB and should download easily.
Open in VS X6 and relink to your version of the avi.
Render to Same as Project Settings.

The second file “12 avi.zip” 14MB is a Smart Package, open the VSP using X6, the overlay track contains a copy of the rendered project

http://www.upfordown.com/files/download ... 20only.zip

http://www.upfordown.com/files/download ... %20avi.zip

Jmadl · Post by **Jmadl** » Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:50 pm

Morning!

Here are the rest of the Spinning Skull AVI if you desire:
http://www.mediafire.com/download/eakbu ... ull001.avi
http://www.mediafire.com/download/ac0on ... ull002.avi
http://www.mediafire.com/download/2k2nq ... ull003.avi
http://www.mediafire.com/download/coci8 ... ull004.avi
http://www.mediafire.com/download/onhjm ... ull005.avi
http://www.mediafire.com/download/apfrv ... ull006.avi
http://www.mediafire.com/download/f0h1m ... ull007.avi
http://www.mediafire.com/download/752aj ... ull008.avi

I tried your samples. I looked at your settings and followed their example - my data rate was variable 6000, I changed to constant 8000, I was using 2-pass, I changed to only one, and I changed to Frame Based.

Here is what I get using your 12 frame test sample (used as an Overlay onto a JPG background):
http://www.mediafire.com/download/9j26d ... n_wood.mpg

gets a little jaggy but certainly usable! My attempts with this one was Really Bad (thus I did not bother keeping to show you just how bad)

Here is a quick attempt to re-do the full spin using your settings:
First Render: http://www.mediafire.com/download/1jen4 ... n_test.mpg
Second Render using as an Overlay: http://www.mediafire.com/download/l6b7c ... verlay.mpg

Certainly an Improvement! I think also that VS's chroma Key function is also just a basic system, I played with a free app called Cinegobs that gave more control over the alpha channel and it showed great improvement however to do it to multiple clips, AND to process each one Identical, was a bit complex and time consuming as well; but great to work on a full clip! After all, we don't all have millions of dollars to spend on full

blown studio equipment and power house computers, right?
(P.S. I have focused on this particular clip as the hat is a 3D model on my own reenactment hat

Post by **lata** » Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:09 pm

Hi

What a pain that download site is, guess that’s what to expect when its free.

Your render “on Wood” looks appalling.

I have uploaded the same video, for me it looks much better, so what are we doing differently.

With the video clip in the overlay track, click to select first clip
I then right click screen and select Fit to Screen
Repeat and Keep Aspect Ratio
Right click clip on timeline , Copy Attributes.
Shift + click last clip to select all.
Right click to Paste Attributes. All clips resized
Select every second clip in turn and Reverse Video
Share Create Video File –Same as Project settings.

I have uploaded my sample rendered on wood.
http://www.mediafire.com/download/1ec6g ... n_wood.mpg

Not had time to view the last two uploads

There is a slight jaggedness to the feather and sward edges.
Could that be the original images rather than rendering to video?

Jmadl · Post by **Jmadl** » Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:15 am

I see where I am not quite explaining myself clearly now.

When I follow your workflow above I do indeed get results like you do; however I see you did not set the Chroma Key on the clip's properties (thus: the green glow around the feathers).
Here is what I get with the Chroma Key set (value is default at 70) and to counter the transparent effect that develops on the subject I copy and duplicat to a second overlay track:
http://www.mediafire.com/download/8b5jq ... _Again.mpg

BUT; what I am trying to due that causes the rally bad jagged edges is to use VS to 'join' the clips together, into a Single Clip and use that (second generation) to use in the final editing...ie:

With the video clip in the overlay track, click to select first clip
right click screen and select Fit to Screen
Repeat and Keep Aspect Ratio
**click properties to open the file's property panel and select Chroma Key
Right click clip on timeline , Copy Attributes.
Shift + click last clip to select all.
Right click to Paste Attributes. All clips resized
**Select all clips again, copy all, paste all into a second Overly track (this resolves transparency effect from Chroma Key)
Share Create Video File –Same as Project settings.
--THEN, use that single clip output in my other editing projects (this is where the jaggy edges come in)

I poked around last night and think perhaps a third party "joiner" app might work...since all my clips are identical in codec, size, and settings perhaps a simple joiner can achieve what I am trying to do?
Target: to have just 1 clip to save and work with instead of 8, 12, or even 100+ (as in the case of my 3min waving flag)

Jmadl · Post by **Jmadl** » Sat Jul 20, 2013 4:13 am

SUCCESS!!

I needed a Joiner, I settled with VirtualDub and it joined them with no visable loss to quality! (least none that my tired old eyes can tell.
Now I can call them into VS when ever I want and overlay away!

Post by **lata** » Sat Jul 20, 2013 1:15 pm

Hi

Glad to hear you are able to combine all 8 clips using Virtual Dub

Using Video Studio I managed to remove the green cast showing on the feathers.
I think the problem is the way transparent background is applied using Poser.

What I did was to use VS X6 to convert the video clips to Same as First Clip, this combined the 8 clips into one.
How---- Insert the 8 clips to the top timeline and create another video file, Same as first clip will create an AVI.
Add this to the timeline to apply Chroma Key, this seems to successfully remove the background. Rendered to Mpeg2

There is a small issue regarding the frame size 720 x 480 is the standard NTSC DVD size, however this would be anamorphic and display the video as 4:3 or 16:9.
Your clip is not anamorphic and displays the frame as 720 x 480, I then have to use Fit to Screen and Keep aspect Ratio, it may be this that is causing the jagged edges.

Are you able to set your graphics using Poser on a 1280 x 720 background. That would use 16:9 widescreen

Alludo USER to USER Web Board

Overlay Track: Jagged Edges in Animations with Green Screen?

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