Combining different video formats in a project

[dmz]

Greetings,

I have several different video clips with different formats from different cameras I'd like to use in one project. Is this possible and if so, is the rule to use the lowest common denominator?
e.g. One file type is 25fps, 720x576 non-hd and another is 50fps, 1280x720 hd, so the output would have to use the first specs?
What about different clips and the upper, lower, frame based thingy?
I did try one experiment combining the two examples above using the first specs to create and avi file and the original 720x576 quality was reduced but the 1280x720 came out fine. Thats why Im asking - If I created the output based on the first lower specs, why did the clip with those specs turn out worse?

Thanks

David

[skier-hughes]

Not exactly sure why the output came out worse, could be the type of avi you saved to, there are over 800 different types, and some are heavily compressed and this would cause the problem.
If I were doing this, I'd decide on my final output choice, so if making an SD dvd, I'd convert all my files first to this format and then do my editing.
I can set all files to be converted overnight, and editing tends to be much quicker then when I come to do it, so saving time.

[dmz]

Thanks for your reply. I hoped it was easier than having to spend time experimenting with trying out 800 output file formats until you find the one that works.
I was thinking about creating a common file type from the original clips before editing, but I thought that would be no good as the common file type would be of a lossy format therefore any post editing would reduce the quality even further?
Thanks
David

[BrianCee]

you don't have to try 800 different outputs - you just need to decide what will your final output be used for - if for instance you are intending to make a standard DVD to play on any bodys DVD player then just render everything to a DVD compliant mpeg. if you to view the output on your TV then what is the best quality input your TV has - does it have USB or HDMI inputs - then render a suitable file to input to those. And if burning a Blu-Ray disc, you need either an AVCHD clip or one in Blu-Ray compatible high def transport stream mpeg-2.

You say you rendered to .avi - but tell us nothing about the properties of that .avi - did you ensure that the output properties were identical to the first clip in every way.

[dmz]

Thanks.

The avi file is of the following type:

Code: Select all

Format                                   : AVI
Format/Info                              : Audio Video Interleave
Commercial name                          : DVCPRO 50
Format profile                           : OpenDML
File size                                : 7.59 GiB
Duration                                 : 37mn 43s
Overall bit rate mode                    : Constant
Overall bit rate                         : 28.8 Mbps

Video
ID                                       : 0
Format                                   : DV
Commercial name                          : DVCPRO 50
Duration                                 : 37mn 43s
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 48.9 Mbps
Encoded bit rate                         : 57.6 Mbps
Width                                    : 720 pixels
Height                                   : 576 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate mode                          : Constant
Frame rate                               : 25.000 fps
Standard                                 : PAL
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:2
Bit depth                                : 8 bits
Scan type                                : Interlaced
Scan order                               : Bottom Field First
Compression mode                         : Lossy
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 4.715
Time code of first frame                 : 00:00:00:00
Time code source                         : Subcode time code
Stream size                              : 7.59 GiB (100%)

Audio
ID                                       : 0-0
Format                                   : PCM
Muxing mode                              : DV
Muxing mode, more info                   : Muxed in Video #1
Duration                                 : 37mn 43s
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 1 536 Kbps
Encoded bit rate                         : 0 bps
Channel(s)                               : 2 channels
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 KHz
Bit depth                                : 16 bits
Stream size                              : 414 MiB (5%)
Encoded stream size                      : 0.00 Byte (0%)

and I wish to use this file in a project with this file type (mov file):

Code: Select all

Format                                   : MPEG-4
Format profile                           : QuickTime
Codec ID                                 : qt  
File size                                : 231 MiB
Duration                                 : 41s 380ms
Overall bit rate                         : 46.9 Mbps
Encoded date                             : UTC 2012-06-22 13:02:29
Tagged date                              : UTC 2012-06-22 13:02:29

Video
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : AVC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile                           : Baseline@L5.0
Format settings, CABAC                   : No
Format settings, ReFrames                : 1 frame
Format settings, GOP                     : M=1, N=12
Codec ID                                 : avc1
Codec ID/Info                            : Advanced Video Coding
Duration                                 : 41s 380ms
Bit rate                                 : 45.4 Mbps
Width                                    : 1 280 pixels
Height                                   : 720 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate mode                          : Constant
Frame rate                               : 50.000 fps
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0
Bit depth                                : 8 bits
Scan type                                : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.984
Stream size                              : 224 MiB (97%)
Language                                 : English
Encoded date                             : UTC 2012-06-22 13:02:29
Tagged date                              : UTC 2012-06-22 13:02:29
Color primaries                          : BT.709
Transfer characteristics                 : BT.709
Matrix coefficients                      : BT.601

Audio
ID                                       : 2
Format                                   : PCM
Format settings, Endianness              : Little
Format settings, Sign                    : Signed
Codec ID                                 : sowt
Duration                                 : 41s 380ms
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 1 536 Kbps
Channel(s)                               : 2 channels
Channel positions                        : Front: L R
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 KHz
Bit depth                                : 16 bits
Stream size                              : 7.58 MiB (3%)
Language                                 : English
Encoded date                             : UTC 2012-06-22 13:02:29
Tagged date                              : UTC 2012-06-22 13:02:29

The output will be a standard definition DVD.
So do I convert both file types to dvd mpeg format and then do my editing?
Or can I convert the mov file to the "lower" spec avi file format and then do the editing?
The above is one example but I have other examples and I was looking to a general rule of how to go about doing this. I may ultimately have up to six different file formats from six different cameras that need combining.
And what if my output was youtube?

Thanks

[Ken Berry]

I am not totally sure whether the non-HD file originally had those avi specs you provided, or whether those properties were just the ones you used to produce the new avi.

However, I see an immediate problem. First, the DVCPRO properties show a very high bitrate, which of course means high quality (though large file size). The international DVD standard, though, imposes a maximum bitrate (audio + video combined) of 10,000 kbps or roughly about 6 times less the bitrate of the DVCPRO properties you provided -- and few stand-alone DVD players can manage much more than 8000 kbps for the video stream. That would considerably reduce the quality in its own right. (And as you would be aware, you have to convert to mpeg-2, not mpeg-4, to be compliant with the international DVD standard.)

Moreover, the DVCPRO video uses lower field first, while the 1280 x 720 video uses progressive or frame based and also a very high bitrate. Combining them using, say, lower field first should not be problematic for the latter, though you would in effect be throwing away half of the full frames to get down to 25 fps from the original 50 fps. It might, however, be a little problematic (slight jerkiness) if the video contains fast action and panning shots. It might be better if you converted the DVCPRO to frame based mpeg-2, though you would need to experiment to see if you are pleased with the quality.

[dmz]

Thanks.
The avi file came straight from my panasonic gs 300 mini dv camcorder.
The mov file came from one of my canon point and shoot cameras.

I guess my main concern is that in this day and age, I am unable to edit videos without severely impacting on the video quality?

David

[Ken Berry]

Normally, converting DV/AVI to DVD-compatible mpeg-2 is easy and produces good results -- though that will of course depend on things like the bitrate you use. If you use a high bitrate (such as the default 8000 kbps), while it might not be the same quality as the original DV, it should still be close. The quality will, of course, drop off the more you lower the bitrate. And you would really only do that if your project is longer than an hour. (8000 kbps will allow you to burn an hour of mpeg-2 to a single layer DVD, or a bit more if you use Dolby audio instead of LPCM; 6000 kbps will allow 90 minutes; and 4000 kbps will allow 2 hours though at that stage the quality will be no better than a decent VHS video.)

Your .mov/AVCHD file is obviously better quality than either DV/AVI or SD mpeg-2. That's the nature of the beast that is high def video. Down-converting it to SD mpeg-2 will mean it will lose some quality, but as you have found, it would still look better that your SD mpeg-2 -- perhaps something very similar to your original DV/AVI quality.

But I guess the bottom line is that the only way you are going to be able to retain the quality of your HD video and perhaps also retain the original quality of your DV/AVI, would be to buy a Blu-Ray burner, up-convert the DV/AVI to either AVCHD or Blu-Ray compatible transport stream mpeg-2, and mix it with your 1280 x 720 video. You would then be able to either burn Blu-Ray discs, or as I do, put your edited, rendered HD video onto a USB stick-drive or external hard drive and plug that into your stand-alone Blu-Ray player or, if your HDTV is a recent one, straight into the TV.

[dmz]

Thanks for your detailed reply Ken.

I understand that if I make a SD DVD that the quality would be a bit lower. I have done this with the avi files alone and I find it acceptable. Its combining two formats that seems to require "double" editing.

For converting file formats I dont understand all the rules. The only basics I know is that you cannot increase the fps and I assume cannot increase the size.

I have a blu-ray burner. How do I "up-convert" the dv/avi to avchd or bluray? I thought I couldnt turn a 720x576 into a 1280x720?
Thanks
David

[lata]

Hi David

DV-Avi video from your camera uses interlacing Lower Field First.
For Standard Definition the default VS template Share Create Video File DVD will use Upper Field, the basic rule is to retain the original field order, which is Lower Field.

You will have to use Share Create Video File – Custom, or the Make Movie Templates Manager to create your own template in order to retain Lower Field.

You may however convert the DV-Avi to use Frame Based

Up-Scaling DV-Avi to HD.

Anamorphic 720 x 576 is 16:9, so converting the frame shape to 1280 x 720 or 1920 x 1080 should not be a problem. The field order and frame rate will affect quality.

Again use Make Movie Templates Manager, create a HD template using MPEG Transport-Stream Files.
If you use a 1280 x 720 frame size then you can use 50 fps. This will effectively create a duplicate frames for the DV-Avi, and convert to Frame Based your Mov files should retain their quality.

If you use 1920 x 1080 you can use 25fps Lower Field or Frame Based
The DV-Avi should look good, the Mov will loose 50% of its frames.

The video type you have most of may influence your decision., if you have more HD 50fps footage then retain that frame rate, otherwise use 25fps.

Try both options to check the quality.

Note if you wish to burn a Bluray DVD using 1920 x 1080 you must use 25fps.

Clear as mud

[dmz]

Thank you.
I didnt know you could increase numbers like from 720x576 to 1280x720. You cant do that with jpg photos!
I also didnt know you could increase the fps. Sounds wrong.

Some questions re: the movie templates manager.
I have selected the mpeg transport stream.
On the general tab there is only one encoder option. The ulead mpeg.now encoder.
If I change to frame based and 50 frames a second, the frame size automatically changes to 1280x720.
The user defined section is greyed out so I cannot change it to 1920x1280.
In the compression tab Im assuming I go for 100% quality.
The video format is h264.video and I cannot change it.
Im guessing two pass encode would be a good option.
Do I use AVCHD or AVCREC?
Bit rate is variable and I cannot change that and it is set to 18000. Should I change that?
audio is dolby digital. I should change that to LPCM as both my source files have audio as PCM format?

Thanks heaps.

David

[dmz]

I did some testing and the best options are 50 fps.
Given that I thought you couldnt raise the size or fps and it appears you can, what things can't you do when converting videos? Im assuming one would be increasing the bit rate.

p.s. I tried using the LPCM audio for my combined clips and the result was silence. I wonder why? Dolby works just fine.

[BrianCee]

I always convert all my sounds to Dolby when burning a DVD - not only does it sound better but it takes up less space on the DVD.

[lata]

Hi David

Sorry for the delay in replying to your previous post.

Your original question related in using HD (High Definition) and Standard Definition) video in the same project.
The output video would have course have to use one of the settings, the second video being converted.

You can infact change anything relating to the video properties, however the changes will impact on quality and indeed may make the video unsuitable to view.

If you downsize the HD to SD

50 fps will change to 25fps, how the converter removes every second frame.
Although you have lost 50% of the frames playback should be ok as SD.

The frame size 1920 x 1080 can be downsized to 720 x 576/480 (Pal/Ntsc)
This will impact on the quality, but again should be good SD

Audio, Like Brian I always use Digital Dolby, LPCM uses far to much memory for the same quality.

Interlacing, Upper Field, Lower Field and Frame Based, these should remain as original, this can be a problem as SD may use Lower Field, changing the interlacing will/may cause jagged edges. Your two video types use different interlacing, SD is Lower Field and the HD will be Frame Based. If you upscale the DV-Avi then use Frame Based.

Bit Rate/Data Rate, (kbps) yes you can change the bit rate, reducing the rate would impact on quality but also reduces the file size allowing you to add more minutes to a disc.
Use the highest Bit Rate available for your video type. For SD , 8000kbps for 60 minutes of video.

As a guide for HD 18000kbps.
For HD the limit varies depending whether you are burning a Bluray or simply creating a AVCHD video file.
In the same way the 50fps cannot be burned to Bluray disc but can be used to create the video file and play via USB stick.

Hope that helps a little and is not to confusing.

David can you tell us exactly what you are trying to make, a standard video or HD.

[dmz]

Thanks so much for the time you've taken to help. Im sure my issue is a common one.

There are two fundamental questions. The title of this thread is one. How do you combine videos of different formats in one project?

The second question is: What settings do you need to get the best quality results?

I make the assumption that one cannot simply drag clips from different cameras with vastly different video file properties into the one timeline, edit them, and output to a single format.
The responses in this thread suggest that original video files from multiple sources must first be converted to a 'common' format and then they can be combined for editing.
Its deciding what is the best 'common' format based on the input files that I cannot work out.
Ive learnt that you can make things bigger which astounded me. I can take a 720x576 and convert it to a 1280x720 without losing quality. And I can apparently convert a 25fps into a 50fps. None of this makes sense but it seems to work.
It also appears that the best 'common' format is 'frame based'. i.e. that if any input files have lower or upper first, that these should always be converted to 'frame based' or 'progressive'. (unless of course each original file format has the same property. e.g. all are lower.). In my case, one was 'frame based' and the other was 'lower'. So the lower needs to be converted to frame based.

As to the ultimate destination - in my case its either tv or youtube. So do I assume I cannot do HD as one of my video files is not HD?

Thanks again

David Z