with one foot.....

[kross]

Every once in a while, I give Darktable another try. I just tried it again today, and still got too frustrated with it to use it for more than a few minutes. At least the module selection thingy isn't quite as bad as it used to be, but it's still bad. If it's supposed to be accessed infrequenty, it should be in the program preferences. If it's supposed to be accessed frequenty, then make it easier to use. A little 10-line high list box with 50 or more items in it? I have two 27" monitors on my desktop, with tons of desktop real estate. Make it a popup with the entire list visible at once. And no scroll bar unless I hover the mouse over the exact position of the scroll bar slider? Seriously, this is good UI design? Having to play hide-and-seek to find the scrollbar slider? (yes I know I can use the scroll wheel, but that's irrelevant)

I tried to do something simple, like set the white balance using an eye dropper tool. Of course there's no obvious way. No eye dropper anywhere in sight. So I look at the tabs. I try correction tab, then color tab, then basic tab, and find a white balance group. But even there, there's no obvious eye dropper to set white balance. However, if you click the "profile" button, and select spot color, you can set the white balance. (Not very obvious) But of course, after selecting "spot color", no visible change happens. No change to the mouse cursor, it's still the same arrow as before. No indication of what I'm supposed to do next. So I click on the image, and it does change the white balance.

But now, it seems to be stuck in white balance mode. I can't drag the image now to move its position, with a hand grabber like before. It still changes the white balance. No obvious way in the white balance module to stop it from doing that. Also, in most image editing programs, you can always hold down the space bar to move the image, no matter what mode the mouse pointer is currently in. Photoshop, Lightroom, GIMP, ASP, etc. Hold down spacebar while dragging the image, no matter what the current mouse mode is. Not so in DT. Oh and of course, no scroll bars on the image, even when zoomed in.

Yep, still the same frustrating experience as the last time I tried it. Closed it, probably won't try again for quite a while.

Overall, the UI appears to have been "designed" by teenagers who don't actually edit photos for a living.

[tundraquad]

... "designed" by teenagers who don't actually edit photos for a living.

No they don't! This is what makes the difference between ASP and most of the other softwares. The Bibble folks were photographers. They developped a TOOL according to their need. That's the reason why we (photographers) are still hanging here with the hope that this product will survive. But unfortunately we are not sure that Corel is capable of understanding this. Even Adobe failed. They just bought the work of guys like Andy Rouse, that's it. If they wouldn't have ruined RawShooter, (and support linux), right now all of us would be using it.
Bottom line, most of us here are convinced that ASP is a unique, powerfull tool which can be the leader in the photograhy software category. But how can we make Corel realize that?

So long.

[lundbech]

Every once in a while ...

Overall, the UI appears to have been "designed" by teenagers who don't actually edit photos for a living.

Thanks for detailing some of the stuff I didnt bother to write down.

"designed by teenagers who don't actually edit photos for a living"! Spot on!

I don't edit photos for a living, but even as an amateur, there are limits for what you can be expected to accept. I use only Linux and open source software on my PCs - even though it means an occasional compromise. But there are just some compromises that I'm not ready to make.

[tomsi42]

There is an update out now!

[algreen345]

Digital photography software isn't magic. You can get software which abstracts the process of editing digital files and makes it easy for uninformed users to be magicians. Or you can get software which educates you about how digital images are created and become even more powerful.

I have invested a few months now in learning to use darktable and have learned so much about digital photography in the process. The designers are most certainly photo editors, but they aren't designing software for people who know nothing about digital images. In ASP, one can use noise reduction without ever learning that luminescence noise is inserted in a photo when it is lightened due to increases in white pixels. Nor can one learn that chroma noise is inserted by darkening or coloring due to increases in colored dots. I have found that learning to use darktable has increased my ability to produce better images.

If you expect to transition from ASP to dt in a few hours, you will be disappointed. If you put in some effort to read the manual, study the tutorials, and experiment, you will be rewarded with superior images as your skill improves.

This is my experience.

[afx]

Sorry, I'd rather do it with ImageMagick on the command line.
It will still be faster and more efficient than dealing with DTs broken UI.

cheers
afx

[lundbech]

I have invested a few months now in learning to use darktable and have learned so much about digital photography in the process. The designers are most certainly photo editors, but they aren't designing software for people who know nothing about digital images. In ASP, one can use noise reduction without ever learning that luminescence noise is inserted in a photo when it is lightened due to increases in white pixels. Nor can one learn that chroma noise is inserted by darkening or coloring due to increases in colored dots. I have found that learning to use darktable has increased my ability to produce better images.

If you expect to transition from ASP to dt in a few hours, you will be disappointed. If you put in some effort to read the manual, study the tutorials, and experiment, you will be rewarded with superior images as your skill improves.

This is my experience.

So everyone who rejects Darktables ridiculous UI design, "know nothing about digital images"? Really?

I can assure you that I have spent more than "a few hours" with Darktable without the experience becoming just a bit more pleasing.

It may be that you can learn something from Darktable, and it may even make you feel smart, but that really has nothing what so ever to do with the UI design disasters that have been described in this thread.

[algreen345]

ASP. UI is great. One Developer working on updates. Has no future.

Darktable. Not so great UI. Many Developers. Bright Future.

Common you can make a rational decision can't you?

[lundbech]

ASP. UI is great. One Developer working on updates. Has no future.

Darktable. Not so great UI. Many Developers. Bright Future.

Common you can make a rational decision can't you?

ASP has been updated within last few days. Have no idea how many developers. Future still looks fine.

Darktable. Basically flawed UI and moving continuously in the wrong direction. Not sure it's "many developers" are able to make "rational decisions". Therefore not at all sure about it's future.

As long as ASP fills my needs there is no reason to go anywhere. And if I were, I'd have a look at Photivo and RawTherapee first. And possibly going Windows. Have a look at what kross wrote above. Darktable is far down on the list.

[tomsi42]

ASP. UI is great. One Developer working on updates. Has no future.

Darktable. Not so great UI. Many Developers. Bright Future.

Common you can make a rational decision can't you?

Many developers does not guarantee a bright future. Successful projects needs a clear vision and good leadership.

[grubernd]

darktable is definitly NOT a tool for people who have to work on more than one image. it's a bad clone of lightroom without understanding the design-philosophy of adobe. because wether one likes lightroom or not, one can make it work. even for hundreds of images at a time. because the basic tools are so well designed. darktable is still stuck in the dark ages of mathematical image editing, where the pure algorithm is more or less presented naked to the user as a slider, without thinking about usability. and without professional means of meta-handling those hardcore tools.

this update alone has prolonged the practical life of ASP for years to come. at least for me. but then i tend to say you dont know a camera before you have used it for a year or processed about 10000 single frames with it. my cameras have a usage life of 5 or more years.

and if i would be using a real nifty single image superfinetuning editor i'd pick photivo. quirky, slow, but at least it has a very straight workflow and delivers awesome image quality. because that is what counts in the end.

[grubernd]

Sorry, I'd rather do it with ImageMagick on the command line.
It will still be faster and more efficient than dealing with DTs broken UI.

signed.

throw in the commandline version of SiliconBonk and you even get first grade monochrome conversions. =)

[algreen345]

I get better IQ in DT. Its not quite as fast as ASP, but the IQ is better, especially when it comes to camera specific, ISO graded, noise reduction. And now they are adding gradient shaped masks. The learning curve was steep. But now I fly through simple editing and can do many complex things in DT (like drawing masks and selecting color regions within the masks for saturation, blending, and other functions) that are simply impossible in ASP. I own a license in ASP and use it sometimes. Its fast and pretty. For some photos it is great. But overall it is not as flexible or as powerful.

[jknights]

Sorry, I'd rather do it with ImageMagick on the command line.
It will still be faster and more efficient than dealing with DTs broken UI.

cheers
afx

Have you looked at Lightzone. Windows/Mac/Linux. It is free from version 4.0 and seems very fast.
However it's UI is still very early stages. Something to watch if Corel drops the ball again.