with one foot.....

[EOS]

Only have to say that after 9 years of using bibble/aftershot
i'm with one foot off the software from Corel. I'm realy sick of waiting!

In the picture Aftershot/Darktable: you can decide what is what......
http://users.telenet.be/photo-memories/ ... ershot.jpg

[lundbech]

Only have to say that after 9 years of using bibble/aftershot
i'm with one foot off the software from Corel. I'm realy sick of waiting!

In the picture Aftershot/Darktable: you can decide what is what......
http://users.telenet.be/photo-memories/ ... ershot.jpg

When posting such, you should make it clear which photo is from which program. You say "Aftershot/Darktable" but the filename says "Dartable_vs_Aftershot". So which is which?

The photo on the left is clearly overprocessed to the extent that the sky is ruined and in the other the greens are a bit washed out.

Without trying to achieve the same result in both programs, there really is nothing to compare, but with the original raw file I (and you) could easily achieve both results in Aftershot. I could also easily do something a lot better!

What remains is still that the Darktable UI is an unholy mess!

[TheDude]

What remains is still that the Darktable UI is an unholy mess!

Do you have a keyboard short cut to repeat this at every opportunity?
However, repeating it, doesn't make it true.

[lundbech]

What remains is still that the Darktable UI is an unholy mess!

Do you have a keyboard short cut to repeat this at every opportunity?
However, repeating it, doesn't make it true.

No, repeating it does not make it true, but it is. A few examples.

- First of all the separation af darkroom and lightable, inspired by how you work with film, is ridiculous. Compare with Aftershot.

- Also compare Aftershots "Basic Adjustments" widget where all the most common adjustments are located. Often enough for processing an image. To find all the similar settings i Darktable you have to go through a s**** of modules.

- Even though you can download styles from the darktable homepage, you must import them one at the time. And they are stored in the image database (of all places!) so there is no easy way to do a backup.

- Even though the management of modules has been improved, it is still at best odd. Finding them and activating them is a cumbersom process. A simple open dialog and checkboxes would do the trick, but as everything in Darktable it seems like the programmers always try to do things in new flashy ways, even though there others that have been tested and done before - and that works.

- The adjustment of UI contrast and darkness via functionkeys F7-F10? But no way to save the setting. To bad if you hit one of them by accident. Totally ridiculous.

- There are many such examples, all the way down to the preset and styles menus, found below the image in darkroom: one drops down (and needs to be scrolled for contenst to be seen), the other pops up over the image.

The above are just a few examples, I could go on forever.

There just seems to be no philosophy behind the design. Or none that makes any sense what so ever.

As I said: an unholy mess!

[EOS]

L = darktable
R = Aftershot

OK the L is "over" the limit, but you can see more highlight recovery, black pointy is possible, colors are possible, ......

but i was saying "with one foot" i'm learing Darktable at this moment to switch over
i don't wait anymore, sorry!

[TheDude]

- First of all the separation af darkroom and lightable, inspired by how you work with film, is ridiculous. Compare with Aftershot.

Basically it is a method of separating DAM and image processing. I like the "hybrid approach" in ASP, because ways are slightly shorter. Nevertheless, using DAM features feels actually easier for me in DT, especially tagging.

- Also compare Aftershots "Basic Adjustments" widget where all the most common adjustments are located. Often enough for processing an image. To find all the similar settings i Darktable you have to go through a s**** of modules.

Can't agree. "Basic Adjustments" have never been sufficient for me in Bibble or ASP (nikon cameras). The more I get familiar to DT, the faster I achieve pleasant results. Meanwhile I'm at least as fast as I was in Bibble/ASP. DT provides some really nice editing features, that you can't find in ASP. Altogether, image processing appears more powerful and flexible in DT. Yes, initially you have to invest some time, learning how the modules work. For me it was a worthwhile investment of time.

- Even though you can download styles from the darktable homepage, you must import them one at the time. And they are stored in the image database (of all places!) so there is no easy way to do a backup.

I find all styles I created in ~/.config/darktable/styles. I did not have to export them manually. What seems to be stored in the database are presets for single modules. Yes would be a nice feature to import more than one style and storing module presets outside the database would (possibly) be slightly better. Nevertheless, doing a backup is easy by including the entire ~/.config/darktable folder in your backup.
I think the aspects you talk about render the syncing of multiple independent dt installations more difficult. But this is far away from being a show stopper.

- Even though the management of modules has been improved, it is still at best odd. Finding them and activating them is a cumbersom process.

Can't agree. It's pretty simple to use. It could have been done by using check boxes or this way... so what. Both works, both is easy.

- The adjustment of UI contrast and darkness via functionkeys F7-F10? But no way to save the setting. To bad if you hit one of them by accident. Totally ridiculous.

has never been a problem in practice for me... I guess the settings are saved in dartablerc file in the config folder. I wouldn't miss the feature of configuring brightness and contrast of the ui if it was gone, but it dosen't bother me anyway in practice.

As I said: an unholy mess!

nope, not really a convincing reasoning for me. After years of using B4/B5/ASP, I use DT successfully in practice for processing large and small sets of images. I agree, that the UI could be improved in many aspects, but there are no show stoppers for me. Some things work better for me than in asp, some things worse and some simply different.

[lundbech]

L = darktable
R = Aftershot

OK the L is "over" the limit, but you can see more highlight recovery, black pointy is possible, colors are possible, ......

but i was saying "with one foot" i'm learing Darktable at this moment to switch over
i don't wait anymore, sorry!

Sorry, but I see no highlight recovery in the left image ... quite to the contrary.

[Hobgoblin]

L = darktable
R = Aftershot

OK the L is "over" the limit, but you can see more highlight recovery, black pointy is possible, colors are possible, ......

but i was saying "with one foot" i'm learing Darktable at this moment to switch over
i don't wait anymore, sorry!

Sorry, but I see no highlight recovery in the left image ... quite to the contrary.

Would be interesting to see the Original RAW from which these are derived ...

R.

[lundbech]

- Even though the management of modules has been improved, it is still at best odd. Finding them and activating them is a cumbersom process.

Can't agree. It's pretty simple to use. It could have been done by using check boxes or this way... so what. Both works, both is easy.

I'll just reply to this one as an example of how flawed the Darktable design is.

You can show or hide modules using a widget showing seven out of app. 50 different modules. That involves a hell of a lot of scrolling, so I figure that is something you do once or not very often, or selection would have been made easier. But if so, why is it at part of UI and not in the settings/preferences?

Once activated they go into predefined groups represented by symbols and named: "basic group", "tone group", "color group" "effects group" and there is even one named "show modules explicit specified by user" (seriously!).

There is just no design philosophy behind it. (actually there is, but it's kinda weird: http://darktable.org/redmine/projects/d ... Guidelines )

The overall design looks like something you'd expect to see in a Hollywood science fiction film, where people use tranparent monitors and other cool stuff, and not really something you'd use for working.
Darktable falls into the "we do not use capital letters in the UI because we think it looks cool" category! Nobody else does that, and with good reason! Basicly Darktable is a toy for a handful of programmers, trying to do things in ways that others have tried and failed.

So they end up with a piece of software that rather looks like those pictures teens post in forums showing how awesome-looking their computer desktop is. I suppose Darktable indeed will enhance your feeling of awesomeness, but as an example of software design, it's still an unholy mess!

[lundbech]

The overall design looks like something you'd expect to see in a Hollywood science fiction film, where people use tranparent monitors and other cool stuff, and not really something you'd use for working.
Darktable falls into the "we do not use capital letters in the UI because we think it looks cool" category! Nobody else does that, and with good reason! Basicly Darktable is a toy for a handful of programmers, trying to do things in ways that others have tried and failed.

So they end up with a piece of software that rather looks like those pictures teens post in forums showing how awesome-looking their computer desktop is. I suppose Darktable indeed will enhance your feeling of awesomeness, but as an example of software design, it's still an unholy mess!

Just one more thing: Do you know of any other piece of software that uses app. 1/15 of the available on-screen space for flashing the program logo and name?

[afx]

What remains is still that the Darktable UI is an unholy mess!

Do you have a keyboard short cut to repeat this at every opportunity?
However, repeating it, doesn't make it true.

Well, no matter if repeated or not, it is a nightmare....
Tools that are accessible by icon only are a brain dead and inefficient idea.
A modal design is another silly inefficiency.

Just because people can adjust them-selfs to a specific UI model, does not mean it is a good one.
Darktable even beats LightRoom in that regard. Yuck³!

The overall design looks like something you'd expect to see in a Hollywood science fiction film, where people use tranparent monitors and other cool stuff, and not really something you'd use for working.

Exactly. Silly eye candy instead of efficiency.

Just one more thing: Do you know of any other piece of software that uses app. 1/15 of the available on-screen space for flashing the program logo and name?

The top bar on LightRoom?

cheers
afx

[TheDude]

But if so, why is it at part of UI and not in the settings/preferences?

Because the decision to use a generally disabled module depends on a particular image or on a particular series of images. Then it is a pretty short and easy way to click on "more modules", activate the modules you want to use here and deactivate it later, when you don't need it anymore. I don't believe it is more efficient to go through setting dialogs.

The overall design looks like something you'd expect to see in a Hollywood science fiction film, where people use tranparent monitors and other cool stuff, and not really something you'd use for working.
... Darktable falls into the "we do not use capital letters in the UI because we think it looks cool" category! Nobody else does that, and with good reason! Basicly Darktable is a toy for a handful of programmers, trying to do things in ways that others have tried and failed.
So they end up with a piece of software that rather looks like those pictures teens post in forums showing how awesome-looking their computer desktop is. I suppose Darktable indeed will enhance your feeling of awesomeness, but as an example of software design, it's still an unholy mess!

that's mostly ranting, not reasoning. It's not a basis for a decent discussion.

Just one more thing: Do you know of any other piece of software that uses app. 1/15 of the available on-screen space for flashing the program logo and name?

Press ctrl+H and it's gone. Only drawback then is, you have to use the keybord to switch between view modes.

Tools that are accessible by icon only are a brain dead and inefficient idea.

The tabs are labled with icons, not the tools. However, I don't need text there. It took me a few minutes (at most), getting used to it. The benefit is a cleaner UI, not cluttered with useless text.

Just because people can adjust them-selfs to a specific UI model, does not mean it is a good one.

I didn't say that. However, I can't remember having seen a UI of a non-trivial software, which was totally consistent or self-explanatory or didn't require the user to learn, to adapt workflows, to accept some compromises or to be open-minded. With respect to this, DT appears to be nothing special--neither in a negative sense nor in a positive sense.

[dFlyer]

I still prefer ASP, but LightZone is back for both Linux and windows users at: http://lightzoneproject.org/
It's now open source and is labeled 4.0, but still version 3.9 with some of the old bugs fixed.

[lundbech]

Just one more thing: Do you know of any other piece of software that uses app. 1/15 of the available on-screen space for flashing the program logo and name?

Press ctrl+H and it's gone. Only drawback then is, you have to use the keybord to switch between view modes.

Funny thing is, that there are clickable shortcuts to hide the very narrow top toolbar, the filmstrip at the bottom and modules at right and left. But the logo (the one thing that really takes up space) you have to hide through a keyboard shortcut, that you have to search for in settings/preferences. I tried out and used Darktable for months before finding out - by coincidence - that the loge screenspace could be reclaimed!

Another design inconsistency. Just one out of countless others.

[tundraquad]

Shuuuu... guys keep it quite! If Corel can hear your comments, they gonna think that their product is so good, then they won't put an update out.