Huge File Size When Using Program Preferences in VideoStudio

[tommy12]

I used a free one I installed called "x264vfw - H.264/MPEG-3 AVC codec"


Here are my format choices:




and here's my available AVI codecs:

[lata]

Hi
That list shows the main types of video formats, to view the Avi compressions choose Options-AVI tab-Compressions list

The 854 x 480 as far as I can make out are the square pixel size for 16:9 ntsc, I would ignore these figures
The 720 x 480 should also indicate 16:9
Right click a video clip and select properties the attributes tab should indicate the aspect ratio, as the video fills the preview screen it will be 16:9.
Create an image of the properties window and attach to your post.

Now tell us what you are intending to make, a video for the internet or a DVD Disc, if so HD or Standard Definition. If Standard DVD then you have to use 29.79fps.

When I said X4 does not support 60p editing I was referring to the timelines which can only be set to 29.97 / 25fps.
So your video will only play half the frames, but yes you may be able to render the video to 60p

[tommy12]

Hi Trevor,

That list shows the main types of video formats, to view the Avi compressions choose Options-AVI tab-Compressions list

The second list above is the list of AVI compressions:



Here is the image Properties window:


For now, I just want to create a file that can be viewed on a computer as a regular file, and then maybe later as a standard SD DVD. I guess that when making a standard DVD, I will lose half the frames of my 59.94 fps videos, though the 720 x 480 resolution will be preserved?

I was able to set the timeline to 59.94/60 fps:



Thanks,

tommy

[lata]

Hi Tommy

To burn a standard dvd you need to convert to Mpeg2 DVD compliant file similar to these settings

MPEG files
24 bits, 720 x 480, 29.97 fps
Frame-based
(DVD-NTSC), 16:9
Video data rate: Variable (Max. 8000 kbps)
Audio data rate: 256 kbps
Dolby Digital Audio, 48 KHz, 2/0(L,R)

Share Create Video File DVD 16:9 should do, can you try that with a short clip just to test quality. Being Frame Based would also do for PC playback, however I would keep to Quicktime Mov type.

QuickTime Movie Files
24 bits, 854 x 480, 60 fps
Frame-based
MPEG 4 Visual
50% Quality, 24 Key Frame Rate
None, 8.000 KHz, 8 bits, Stereo

Not sure if the frame size should be 854 x 480 or 720 x 480

[tommy12]

Hi Trevor,

Thanks for the suggestions.

The MPEG settings for output to a DVD gave picture quality that was not that bad if the video was watched at 100% size. But it was only at 29.97 fps instead of the 59.94 fps of the original file. If you watched in fullscreen the quality decrease compared to the original file was very noticable, though.

The Quicktime Movie file output using the settings you suggested was not good at all. I have to say it really wasn't acceptable video. There are lots of blurry patches whenever there is motion.

I tried MPEG-4 using the Ulead MPEG-4 vio Driver with M4V-ASP Compression, with the following settings:

MPEG-4 Files
24 bits, 720 x 480, 29.97 fps
Frame-based
MPEG-4 ASP Video: 4000 Kbps
44100 Hz, 16 Bit, Stereo
MPEG AAC Audio: 128 Kbps

I chose the M4V-ASP Compression because it allows a 4000 kbps data rate, while the H264 Main only allows up to 2000 kbps. The above MPEG-4 settings produced video quality that was not bad, like the DVD output, but, again, suffered noticeably at fullscreen compared to the original clip.

I installed the free x264 codec but it doesn't show up in any of the Videostudio choices. Also, a number of codecs I installed will appear under AVI format but not under Quicktime format. This is probably normal? But then I can't use them for MOV output.

I'm mainly concerned with video output to watch on a computer. Is there any free or paid codec that can produce output video files that are as good in quality as the original clip? Everything I've tried decreases the video quality. At fullscreen the difference is readily apparent. I'm not knocking Videostudio in particular. Maybe I'm expecting too much from any $100 editing software package? But on the other hand, the program uses external codecs for the most part. Would a more expensive software package (I don't know of any, most for Windows seem to be priced around $100 or less) produce better results?

The video compression from my camcorder for the 720 x 480p 59.94 fps video (native same res as DVD?) uses an Ambarella H.264 AVC codec. It appears to be a hardware encoder only, embedded in the camera's chip. I certainly don't have and Ambarella specific decoder installed on my computer. I have to conclude that the compression scheme is excellent because it gives a much better picture quality than any of the codecs that are available in Videostudio, and it produces small files. What's puzzling to me (I'm just starting to learn this stuff) is that it gives better picture quality compressing video in realtime (at 59.94 fps!) than a desktop computer gives taking as long as it wants. I must be missing something here because I think that edited video as good in quality as the original clips must be able to be produced on desktop computers somehow? Does anyone know the secret codec, software package or method?

thanks,
tommy

[lata]

Hi Tommy

There is not a secret codec, I do think however if conversion takes a short time then the program is happy in doing that and quality may be better, if the encoder struggles and takes time then the quality is reduced. My personal opinion.

Changing from one format to another should will take longer to render than like for like.
Mov and Mpeg4 are similar codecs

Windows Media Video may produce what you want
Quicktime mov you have tried.
Div X may be another option, you will be best uninstalling the latest free version.
You could try MT Transport Stream that should retain the 59fps

We do not have the video to test so cannot give a definite option in converting it.
Only you can see the results.

You say the camera creates the Ambarella H.264 AVC codec, that is correct, we will have asked but does the camera come with software, if so install it, that may provide the codec to your pc.

If you can make a sample available then I am willing to try some render options.

[tommy12]

Hi Trevor,

Sorry it's taken a few days to get this uploaded but here is a clip. I really appreciate that you are willing to try out some rendering options. The software that came with the camcorder is just some very basic DVD maker from Arcsoft. I don't think it installs any codecs.

http://www.mediafire.com/?gzgk3p9nsbsxypk

Thanks very much,
Tommy

[lata]

Hi Tommy

Thanks for the sample, not the best example to use, there is quite a lot of camera shake.
I converted to Standard DVD and yes the quality was quite poor, more so than if I had recorded using my own Standard Definition camera.
Using Upper Field rather than Frame Based created a better look. I think, which surprised me.
I have tried a lot of options Quicktime came out best using the following properties, did take a while to render.
But all I tried produced some flickering on the buildings windows.


QuickTime Movie Files
24 bits, 854 x 480, 60 fps
Frame-based
MPEG 4 Visual
50% Quality, 24 Key Frame Rate
None, 8.000 KHz, 8 bits, Stereo

Photo Jpeg seemed good but very large file sizes?
QuickTime Movie Files
24 bits, 854 x 480, 60 fps
Frame-based
Photo - JPEG
None, 8.000 KHz, 8 bits, Stereo

I will try a few more to see if I can find quality with file size?

[tommy12]

Trevor,

Thanks for taking the time to try my file. Yes, there is a lot of camera shake. I used it because the bricks in the building make it easy to see the quality of the output. I will try your suggestions and I'm trying something else that might work and let you know it the next day or two what I find out.

Thanks,

Tommy

[tommy12]

Hi Trevor,

Thanks for your setting suggestions. I tried them.

The QuickTime settings produced very bad video for me. I think that is to be expectd because the file size shrunk to 25% of the original's. What is with the Quality slider??? It doesn't affect the output one bit. The quality and size of the file is always the same, no matter what you set the slider value to.

The Photo Jpeg gave very good results but increased the file size over 40x, so I can't really use it.

I installed the free x264vfw codec and it gave very good results in an AVI container, but again at the expense of a large file size.

I have a few general questions I'd like to ask, if it's ok?

1) Does the Project Properties settings affect the output video file if you choose anything except use Project Properties?

2) Does the Project Properties really matter when editing a project except for the way it displays in the Preview Window? I'm going to be switching between editing video from several cameras, each capable of several resolutions and framerates, and it's kind of a pain to keep changing the Project Properties to try to match the video clip's properties.

3) If the video clips are very compatible with Videostudio, it takes very little time to render the clips during the share to a file phase. But when you have clips like mine, that aren't very compatible, the "Same as First Clip" option is not available, and it takes a lot of time to render them to the output format. With SmartRender on, if I'm lucky, when I make more edits and then share to the same output file format again, it goes very fast and seems to need to just render the new edits. But the problem for me is that my clips are not very compatible with Videostudio, so that when I turn off my computer and then on again the next time, and start my project again, and then I share to an output file, the first time, it has to always convert my video clips into the output format because I don't have the save to "Same As First Clip" option. So is there any way to save those temporarily rendered files that SmartRender must be producing, so the next time I start my project again with my original clips, Videostudio doesn't have to start from scratch again and have to render EVERYTHING all over again when I share to a file for the first time, taking a huge amount of time????

4) I can set my timeline to 59.94 fps in Project Properties through the method (trick) I've seen outlined on this forum, including in a post by you. But when I start Project Properties, it always starts at MPEG instead of AVI. When I choose AVI I don't see a blank line as the first line in the properties listing, and I click the OK button. But then when I open Project Properties, I see that the first line reads something like drop frames (29.97 fps). Does this matter, since the timeline is still set to 59.94 fps (or 60fps, I can't tell)?

Thanks very much for all your help. I really appreciate it.

Tommy

[lata]

Hi Tommy

Project Properties, well how can I explain these, they certainly confuse a lot of HD users.
First we have been asking Corel to update the Project Properties panel for a long time and nothing has changed.

Video Studio was designed many years ago, and I show my age there were only a few main formats, DV-Avi and Mpeg, High Definition was unheard off at least for the home user. WMV was probably the only web format.

Project Properties worked for the two main formats, you can edit the project properties to match these, this seemed to be associated with Smart Render as some of the info popup windows showed.
Nothing has changed, at least not for the good other than Video Studio using 16:9 as its default preview aspect, at one time it was 4:3
If you use DV-Avi Or Mpeg2 then project properties makes since.

Technology moved on HD, faster Internet, mobile phones etc non of the formats could be set for Project Properties.

Most users only need to match the aspect ratio so their video displays correctly in the preview screen, and most use 16:9 which is now the default.
In fact project properties for the main can be ignored.

There is an option from Preferences Show Messages when inserting First Video……….this prompts you to change the project properties, again designed with Dv-Avi and Mpeg types in mind.
However some HD types will trigger this option especially if using Mpeg. So worth having this selected.
Same as First Clip is associated with project properties and the Show Messages, at least I think it is.

Basically the three top options from Share Create Video File are associated in some way with project properties and need a good overhaul by Corel.

Make Movie templates manager may not support some formats, but you can use the Add function that will replicate the video properties and set a template, but try to manually input, or edit the new template and your settings are changed.
If Share Create Video File - Same as First Clip is available then you should be able to make your own template to the same, and the Add function should work

We know of some tweaks and workrounds, like setting 60 fps using X4, but officially it does not support 50/60 editing, later versions do.

I don’t really understand your problem with 29fps and 59fps, if the project properties show as 29 then the timeline scale will be 29.

I think Corel will eventually drop the Project Properties option, all we need is the aspect ratio 16:9 or 4:3 and the frame rate (FPS) to set the preview correctly to display all frames the final output/rendered file being either same as original or a template we can choose.

As I say we have been informing Corel about our concerns and they are certainly aware, Maybe X7

Hope this helps and has not confused the issue.

[tommy12]

Hi Trevor,

Thanks for the history of Videostudio. Now it makes more sense why things are the way they are. I really appreciate your taking the time to respond to my questions. If it weren't for you and Ken I would have probably given up on VS.

Well, I'm not sure where to begin, but I'd like to share some things I've discovered and ask some questions I still have, if you don't mind. I hope this doesn't turn into a long boring rant that causes you to tune out.

Just to recap, I started using VS on some 640 x 480 30fps clips from a Canon point-and-shoot. Immediately there was trouble, in that a simple side roll transition between clips was rendered to an unusual wide-screen aspect ratio, with the aspect ratio reverting back to the normal 640 x 480 after the transition was over. I know enough now (I didn't know anything then) to know that there is going to be trouble with the transition, because, after rendering the unedited clip parts very quickly, it takes a relatively long time to render the transition, instead of quickly, which it should do for just a simple transition.

The cure is not not very satisfactory because it is to turn off SmartRender, which means the FULL video, not just the transition, has to be rendered in its entirety. This is very time consuming.

SmartRender is important in two regards. The first is if you want to produce output to a video file in the same format as the original. If SmartRender recognizes the format, the time to produce the output can be seriously faster compared to having to render the entire video from scratch. The time difference can be like watching a racing car compared to watching grass grow. So to me it's important.

Of course, if you're doing a one time output to a format that is different than the original, I guess that SmartRender doesn't matter since the entire video will have to be rendered anyway. BUT if after producing the output, you find you want to edit the video and output it to the same format again, you would hope that SmartRender would now only re-render the edited parts, not the whole video. This is a second advantage of SmartRender.

Unfortunately, SmartRender seems to be hit-or-miss, not living up to its promise. As you said, if you render a file once but turn off the computer, the next time you start the project, you start from scratch and when you produce an output, the output always has to be rendered from scratch again. SmartRender has no memory from previous sessions. This might be expected, though it would be nice if SmartRender would ask you if you want it to remember for the next time (wishlist for VS7?).

BUT what I don't understand, and maybe you can clear this up if you know the answer. If I share to an output file usually the entire video file is rendered. Obviously, SmartRender didn't "like" the properties of the clips. ok, I understand that. But then, for a test of SmartRender, I can immediately output the file again with no edits, to the exact same format as the first time. Since the file was just rendered and there were no edits, I would think that SmartRender would know that nothing has changed and output the file in record time. But instead, the entire file is usually rendered in its entirety from scratch. Very Frustrating! Do you have any idea what's going on here???

Now, I can't say that it happens like this for every clip I have. I have clips from three different cameras and I can't remember all the results. I do remember that for maybe one or two clips, SmartRender remembered that it just rendered the entire video and produced a second identical output file very quickly, but for the most part, it seems it doesn't remember that it previously just rendered the same video output.

This doesn't apply if SmartRender recognizes the file format as a "somewhat friendly" one (very rare), for lack of a better term, and you are outputting to the same format. Then it renders an output to same format very quickly the second time.

If SmartRender recognizes the file format as a "very friendly" one (even rarer), then rendering to an output of the same format is quick, always.

But it seems the number of formats it recognizes as "somewhat friendly" is not very great. So, at least if SmartRender is going to render the entire video, it should at least render only the edits the second time. After all, isn't that the original selling point of SmartRender?

My experience with Canon, I have an SLR that also takes video, the format is H264 Mov 1920 X 1080.
Now video studio does not read the properties correctly as it does not show them as H264. Now I do not know of a program that can replicate the Canon properties. (H264.Mov)
Don’t get me wrong I can edit and create a new video file using similar properties for the web or disc.

Can you tell me what you mean by "Now I do not know of a program that can replicate the Canon properties. (H264.Mov)"? Are you saying that no program can read the correct the Canon properties? And, also, then automatically set the output to those properties?

More Rambling follows...pardon me...

I tried using clips from my Nikon DSLR with VS. Not a pleasant experience to be sure. Like your Canon, it produces H264 MOV files that VS can't identify as H264. There is a blank line where there is supposed to be the compression type. Now, the Nikon can produce three formats: 640 x 424, 1280 x 720, and 1920 x 1080. Neither of the clips in the original Nikon format is one of the friendly formats that SmartRender likes. The entire video has to be rendered in its entirety always , even when outputting to an identical format and similar bit rate. It takes a long time. What's peculiar is that the Same As First Clip option is available for the latter two formats so I had high hopes. What's even worse is the problem I previously outlined. If I produce an identical output a second time, SmartRender ignores the first output and starts rendering from scratch again. Especially for 1920 x 1080 clips, this is time consuming, not to mention frustrating.

If you have the time, can you produce an output from a short Canon 1920 x 1080 clip to the same format as the original and then immediately produce the output again, to see if SmartRender kicks in as it's supposed to? I would really appreciate it.

I found something that works for some of my MOV clips from the Nikon and my small camcorder to make them more VS friendly. In fact, it only works on a couple of clip formats. For the Nikon, the one specific format is the 1280 x 720 file. But it works like a charm and SmartRender recognizes the clip like it's one of its own children.

I wanted to try to convert my clips into a format that SmartRender would like, while keeping the same quality as the original clip. Additionally, it would have to keep about the same file size. No converting to uncompressed AVI or other lossless format that ballooned the file size 20x. Converting to a different container without re-encoding is the goal. After many days of trying different procedures and programs, I found a simple way that I'm sure others have found, and you probably know already, to convert the MOV files to MP4 without re-encoding. That is to use Quicktime Pro.

If I convert a Nikon clip to MP4 through QT Pro, VS recognizes the compression as H264. For the 1280 x 720 format it is a blessing because SmartRender sails through the clips without doing much and the Same As First Clip option works fine. Unfortunately, SmartRender doesn't have the same liking for the other two Nikon formats.

Even though it recognizes the other two formats as H264, SmartRender still renders them from scratch every time . Again, I had high hopes for the 1920 x 1080 format because the Same As First Clip option was available.

Does anyone know where the SmartRender temporary files are located so I can save them before turning off the computer and use them the next time?

So, in summary, converting the MOV clips to MP4 allows VS to always recognize the H264 compression and makes some of the clips from my camcorder and the 1280 x 720 clips from my Nikon work very well with SmartRender. But I'm still at a loss as to why SmartRender usually doesn't remember that it has already just rendered the same file, and renders the entire video from scratch again. Again, if you have the time to check this SmartRender behavior with one of your short Canon 1920 x 1080 clips, I would really appreciate it.

If Share Create Video File - Same as First Clip is available then you should be able to make your own template to the same, and the Add function should work

Whenever I've tried to use the Add function, the only clips that show up to choose are AVI. If I choose to show all files and then select a mov or mp4 I get an error message. Are you able to choose any format besides AVI successfully?

I don’t really understand your problem with 29fps and 59fps, if the project properties show as 29 then the timeline scale will be 29.

Sorry for causing confusion, I meant that I don't understand what the "drop frame (29.97 fps)" means when I've set the timeline to 59 fps.

I apologize for writing a book and thanks for reading this if you got this far.

Tommy

[lata]

Hi Tommy

The strange change in aspect ratio is still a mystery to me, still think it’s a Non square pixel rendering issue, disabling Smart Render did the job.

It does appear you have the right idea as to what Smart Render is about.

“somewhat friendly” now I like that description sums up the types of video to a tee.

Same as First Video clip I would class as “friendly”, many Mpeg2 types would be friendly. But there are thousands of shall we say internet types and it is difficult for any video editor to cover all.
Many camera manufacturers provide a converter to allow the user to convert to a more editable format, why they don’t provide suitable editable video is beyond me.

My reference to a program to replicate the canon format was referring to a video editor, I use AVS video Converter that will create similar properties.
I think Corel should update their templates to include H264.Mov, then I feel the Same as first Clip would be available.

Render Tests

I ran a few render tests on a 2 minute project 5 short clips with cross fade transitions at 3 seconds.
First render took 2 minutes 40 seconds the transitions being the slowest to complete.
Second render, quite impressed, this took 25 seconds, I guess Smart Render lived up to its name.
Then I ran it again and disabled Smart Render, 51 minutes, that’s not a typo…….

Indecently the originals were 760Mb in total, the new file being 560 Mb

This is the template I used:-

QuickTime Movie Files
24 bits, 1920 x 1080, 25 fps
Frame-based
MPEG 4 Visual
100% Quality, 15 Key Frame Rate
None, 8.000 KHz, 8 bits, Stereo


Make Movie Template Manager

I guess to use the Add function we are referring to “friendly” video

Some Add function will create the template, but if you were to try and create the same as a New option the full settings may not be available, I am referring to HD types.

Once you have used the add option if you try to edit the template some settings change automatically effectively ruining the template.

[tommy12]

Hi Trevor,

Thanks again for your answer and especially for taking the time to test SmartRender (SR from now on) for me. But now things have become a bit more unclear. I thought that SR only affected rendering after the first time, to try to render only changes made. Now, if rendering is always done from the original clips, your test shows that SR affects the rendering right from the beginning, the very first time that a video is rendered, because your first rendering was with SR on, and was about 20x faster than subsequent rendering with SR off.

So SR has some special pull within VS to affect rendering from the very start, not just when re-rendering after making edits.

I'm not sure I understand why your second rendering was faster than the first, since you didn't make any edits. The time of the second rendering was a bit faster than the first, but if SR truly only re-renders changes to the initial rendering, I would think that the time would have been even quicker than it was. Maybe the faster time you saw was really due to something else, like a memory cache effect.

But in any case, rendering with SR on was significantly faster for your particular clips and shows that rendering with SR on is always the best option, if it doesn't cause other problems.

I, too, have AVS Video Converter. Since it helps your 1920 x 1080 Canon clips, I think I'd like to try it out on my Nikon 1920 x 1080 clips. Would you mind telling me the output format you used and the settings for the conversion? I'm thinking it might be easier if you could import a clip into AVS and set the output values, then just take a screenshot. That way I could also see the input file's properties, as well as the output settings (Assuming you clicked the Advanced button). Of course, I probably would have to change the bit-rate to match my own clip's.

After I convert some clips through AVS, I could see if it makes a difference in VS.

Thanks for the suggested template settings. I have tried a similar setting before and did not get very good quality output. But what is curious again relates to SR.

I was experimenting with different quality settings in using x264vfw codec in an AVI container. I found that the quality setting did nothing, which I couldn't believe. The output file was always the same size and quality no matter what the quality slider was set to. It was puzzling, and what I did was deleted the clip from the timeline and then reinserted the same clip again. Then the new quality setting took affect and worked properly. It must be that SR did not see the quality change in the codec and so kept the rendering the same as previously. Also, the quality setting worked ok without having to delete and reinsert the clip if I just turned off SR.

BUT that did not work with your Quicktime template. You have a quality setting of 100%. I found that no matter what I did, I could not get the quality slider to affect the output file. The size was always the same, about 25% of the original's and the quality was poor.

So, can I ask you to do me one more favor, and check to see if changing the quality slider does anything in your case?

Have you gotten the Add function in the Make Template feature work for MOV files? I get an error message if I try.

Again, I want to thank you for the time you took to test SR and for all your help. I really appreciate it.

Tommy

[lata]

Hi

I may have misunderstood your reference to SR affecting the first render, yes it does affect the first conversion making it quicker, a subsequent render will be even faster, yes that may be due to some cache effect.

My thoughts----How smart is “smart render” if we edit a section then that section should receive a full render, but where does it start, the first frame would be a good point, but if video studio is not reading the file correctly, (not a friendly video) then the location of that frame may not be accurate, in which case the edited portions may not receive the correct render, this to me may be the cause of blips during the transitions, cured by disabling SR.

OK the Quality Slider—a bit of a grey area---This has nothing to do with file size, it is the amount of effort the encoder gives in converting the video. 70 / 80% being the default setting is sufficient to create a good video. Increase it to 100 % and the encoder should do a better job, Being more accurate will take a longer time to render, whether we can see the difference is a matter of opinion.
The quality slider may have been used/developed for earlier versions when PC’s were slower giving the user the choice, nowadays with faster pc’s it is probably not required, again my personal opinion.
I must say that when I create a template I select 100% if available.

Make Movie Templates ADD function, Think “Friendly Video”
The add function will work for DV-Avi and Mpeg2, both are capable of setting the project properties.
Some HD types can be used as ADD but I think they are Mpeg types.
I don’t use enough HD to know which are capable of being added.

AVS converter, using version 8, The conversion I did seemed to be an accurate copy of the original, Video Studio showing the properties as the same as originals.

A little busy at the moment but will get those settings to you asap