Huge File Size When Using Program Preferences in VideoStudio

[lata]

Hi Tommy

Well Windows 7 and X4 create the same video when using Same as First Video.

However I did try Share Upload to web YouTube 4:3 and that produced a good video.

The Mjpeg being rendered to Mpeg4 is literally rendering all frames, so Smart Render is practically disabled.

Can you try Share Upload to web?
This should be the same as using your MPEG4 template.......

[tommy12]

Hi Trevor,

Congratulations on upgrading to Windows 7!

You might be right about the video file itself. I don't know, but I see from other threads on this forum that there have been some problems with Smart Render. My clip is from a popular canon sx110 point-and-shoot camera. In the last few days I had the opportunity to make a similar project in a couple of other video editors and there were no problems with joining two clips with a simple transition.

Since I'm rendering the mp4 without Smart Render, I'm wondering if the output is going to degrade every time I make a change and then render again, or does the rendering always start from scratch and use the original clips?

Also, is this going to be an issue when outputting to several different format outputs? Does rendering to a different output format use and convert the last rendered output format, or does it start from scratch, using the original clips?

As you suggested, I tried the Upload to web youtube option. It looks similar to your settings but uses a data rate of 2500Kbs instead of 4000kbs. Even though the original clip only has a data rate of about 1800 kps, I think the setting of 4000kbs gives a better quality picture during motion.

Thanks again,

tommy12

[lata]

Hi Tommy

Rendering the project.

The clips on the hard drive are never changed they remain as original.
When you render the project the original files are used as the source.

Smart Render will fully render the edited portions of the project and do a quick job on the rest. This speeds up the overall rendering process. If you immediately re-edit the project then render again to same settings, Smart Render will take into account the previous render, again only rendering the newly edited parts of the project, render times will be even faster.
Close the project and you start from scratch.
Rendering to similar properties as the original files will be fast.
Rendering to different properties will take time as all frames require fully rendering effectively disabling smart render.

Rendering most video files create some loss in quality but providing you are using suitable properties the quality loss will not be noticed.
Successive rendering of a video file to its next generation will eventually show, but you would have to do this 4 or 5 times.
You are only rendering once, always from the original to the next new file.

Clear as mud………..
-------------------------
Other video editors may cope with your video, but so does Video Studio when you disable Smart Render
-------------------------
My experience with Canon, I have an SLR that also takes video, the format is H264 Mov 1920 X 1080.
Now video studio does not read the properties correctly as it does not show them as H264. Now I do not know of a program that can replicate the Canon properties. (H264.Mov)
Don’t get me wrong I can edit and create a new video file using similar properties for the web or disc.
The problem is manufacturers bring out new cameras, tweak the video codecs and leave the editing software to play catch-up. They may provide some conversion software with instructions to convert the video to a more editable format.
Enough of my rant………

[tommy12]

If I understand you correctly:

With Smart Render OFF, the project is always rendered from scratch and from the original clips, no matter what, including outputting to different file formats one after the other.

With Smart Render ON, the project is rendered in its entirety the first time. Then, if edits are made and the file is outputted again to the same format as previously, only the changes are re-rendered. But whether further edits are made or not, if the the output file format is changed, the file has to be re-rendered again in its entirety to the new file output format, and the original clips are used, not the previously rendered clips that were in a different format.

I'm now trying to see if I can get some good output files from a camcorder. I have camcorder that can output to 720 x 480p resolution with 59.94fps, I took two clips and joined them by a side transition, just like with the 640 x 480 clips we've been discussing so far. After reading a thread on this forum on how to set the timeline to 59.94fps, I was able to create an avi file with true 59.94fps fairly easily. It almost worked flawlessly. I only tried a side roll transition. The video almost came out completely ok, except that the edges at the sides of the green bar are not solid but have thin teeth, like a comb. I'm thinking it might have something to do with interlacing because the only way I could get 59.94fps was not to choose frame based, but either upper or lower field first?

Is the value for size that you put in a template the frame size or the resolution? To get a good output, I had to set the output to 854 x 480. This is the value that VS X4 shows when I look at the clips' properties, even though the camcorder says it's a 720 x 480 resolution. Is this due to non-square pixels in my camcorder? And would non-square pixels apply to other resolutions from this camcorder as well?

The AVI file output is huge, and I thought I would output to the mp4 format like before with the 640 x 480 clips. But The Ulead mp4 codec is used and won't allow an fps above 30fps and you can't type in your own custom fps value. Any suggestions? There seems like there's a zillion codecs out there. Do you know of any guide on the web that can make this codec business and how to incorporate them to work with your video editor any clearer?

I have a Nikon DSLR and that, too, takes video in H264 Mov 1920 x 1080 format, and also other lower resolutions. I was going to work on those after I got my camcorder videos working. I'm sorry to hear that Videostudio doesn't read the properties correctly and that you haven't found a program that can replicate them, as I will have the same problem. I was hoping that the software CD that came with the camera would include a basic editor that would install a compatible codec that could also be used by Videostudio.

On a completely unrelated matter, I think there is something that would be of interest to readers of this forum but I don't know if it would be appropriate to post it here. There is going to be a free three day live webinar starting Thursday 9:00 am California USA time, on video editing using a different editor (doesn't run on windows) that I think is higher end and not directly competing with Videostudio. The description says "will teach editing theory and practice, teach all the important aspects of ... and help you master this complex program." So I think there might be topics about video formats, codecs and video editing that would be useful for anyone doing video editing. I don't have any connection to the webinar. Would it be appropriate to post a new thread informing people of this and give the link?


Thanks again for your rants!

tommy12

[Ken Berry]

With Smart Render ON, the project is rendered in its entirety the first time.

Not quite. SmartRender is only use if the original video format and the output video format *and its properties* are the same i.e. an mpeg-2 project being rendered to a new mpeg-2 with the same properties can use SmartRender. But, say, an avi project being rendered to an mpeg-2 file cannot be SmartRendered and will always be fully rendered.

If you start, say, mpeg-2 files, and do some editing and have SmartRender applied, and doing the first or any subsequent render after further edits, only those parts of the project which have been edited will be fully rendered. The remainder will be SmartRendered i.e. not rendered at all!! Clear as mud??? In reality, SmartRender just means that the program is smart enough to detect which parts of a project need full rendering.

[tommy12]

Hi Ken,

Thanks for your reply.

I think I get it. I thought SmartRender made a temporary file of every clip and effect when the project was outputted to a file. Then when further edits were made, it would only have to re-render the parts changed. What I think you're telling me is that there is no temp file saved, and that SmartRender acts as a kind of filter, that lets unaltered original video through if it's in the same format as the output, but renders the parts of the project that have changed or are different than the output format. Correct?

Let's say you have a project consisting of two clips with a transition between them. Now you output to the same format. SmartRender will pass through unaltered all the original clip parts except for the transition, which it renders. Then, let's say you add a third clip at the end, joining the second clip via a transition. Now you output to the same file format as the original clips' and Smart Render lets everything pass through unaltered except the new transition frames, which it renders. But how does it remember that it already rendered the first transition? I guess it must make a temporary file of everything it renders, after all?

Does the Project Properties have to be set to match the video clip's properties for SmartRender to work properly?

Thanks


tommy12

[Ken Berry]

SmartRender acts as a kind of filter, that lets unaltered original video through if it's in the same format as the output, but renders the parts of the project that have changed or are different than the output format. Correct?

Yes -- correct.

Let's say you have a project consisting of two clips with a transition between them. Now you output to the same format. SmartRender will pass through unaltered all the original clip parts except for the transition, which it renders. Then, let's say you add a third clip at the end, joining the second clip via a transition. Now you output to the same file format as the original clips' and Smart Render lets everything pass through unaltered except the new transition frames, which it renders. But how does it remember that it already rendered the first transition?

Well, you have one of two possibilities here. If you (Smart)render the first two clips, you get a new video clip/file. If you then insert that new file into the timeline (as a new project) and add the third clip, VS SmartRenders only the transition since it is only seeing the first two original clips as a new clip.

Or, if you do the first SmartRender, and then add a third clip and transition and render again, the first render is ignored because you still have a project in the timeline consisting of the original two clips plus the third. So this time, it SmartRenders the two transitions. In other words it is seeing the original project just with an extra clip and transition added, rather than the new rendered clip from the first render plus the addition of the new clip.

In any case, this is a good thing since, as was noted above, it avoids re-rendering the new clip you made with just the two original clips. As Trevor/lata mentioned, the human eye will probably only notice degradation after several re-renders, but it is best to avoid re-rendering wherever you can. Hence the basic philosophy of SmartRender.

[tommy12]

HI Ken,

Great explanation! I've got it.

Thanks for you time and help.

tommy12

[lata]

Hi

You said

“Then, let's say you add a third clip at the end, joining the second clip via a transition. Now you output to the same file format as the original clips' and Smart Render lets everything pass through unaltered except the new transition frames, which it renders”

Yes that’s how I understand it, provided the project has remained open. Once you close the project and open again any renders will as the first instance and fully renders the three transitions.

As mentioned Smart Render works for like for like, so if you change the frame size, frame rate etc then Smart Render is ineffective.

I don’t understand your comment “I had to set the output to 854 x 480”
But clearly there is something odd regarding your video that changes aspect when being played.

[tommy12]

Hi Trevor,

The camcorder is set for a resolution of 720 x 480p. But when I right click on the thumbnail in Videostudio and choose Properties, here is what it says:

File
File format: QuickTime Movie Files
Movie size: 854 x 480

Video Track 1
Compression: Ambarella AVC encoder
Attributes: 24 bits, 720 x 480
Frame rate: 59.94 frame(s)

Sound
Compression: MPEG-4 Audio
Attributes: 48,000 kHz, 16 bits, Stereo


Then I go into Settings>Make Movie Templates Manager>Name
Give the template a Name and choose Microsoft AVI
Then General Tab>Frame size>User-defined>854 x 480

Here's what I end up with:

Make Movie Template:

Microsoft AVI files
24 bits, 854 xx 480, 59.94 fps
Upper Field First
x264vfw - H.264/MPEG-4 AVC codec
PCM, 44.100 kHz, 16 Bit, Stereo

When I output video and view it on a media player it will then fill the whole window. Instead, if I had selected Standard Size 720 x 480, then the video will not fill the window.


The same goes for Project Properties. On the General Tab>Frame size I have to choose User-defined 854 x 480. Otherwise, the video in the Preview Screen won't fill up the whole window. There will be a black "picture frame" around it.

What template settings are you using to ouput your Canon SLR videos?

Thanks,

tommy12

[lata]

Hi Tommy

We seem to be discussing a different video file to Clip 640 x 480_30fps.avi that was used for the transition ratio issue.
I’m confused……………

First if the files are Quicktime why are you converting to AVI?
And I don’t understand why Video Studio shows the frame size as 854 x 480, this is however a 16:9 ratio as near as.
853 x 480 is the Standard NTSC widescreen frame size when using Square Pixels

Your camera I assume is recording in widescreen 16:9 although the frame size shows 720 x 480, this is correct when Non Square Pixel Rendering is applied, which is the normal option for most video types.

Using the original QT video File.
First change the background colour (F6) to any but black, this will allow you to identify the preview frames shape, now add your QuickTime video to the top timeline.

Settings -- Project Properties, (Alt+Enter) –
Edit Format as MpegFiles –
Edit-- make sure Non – Square Pixel Rendering is selected.
Compression tab as NTSC
General tab—set Aspect ratio to 16:9
You can ignore all other settings

How does your video display as in the preview screen?
Do you see any background colour.

Video Studio X4 does not edit 59fps, although there may be a workround to set the project properties to use 59

[tommy12]

Hi Trevor,

I'm sorry for the confusion. Yes, I've switched to a different video file from a different camera. I probably wasn't too clear about that.

Thanks to you and Ken I think I think I understand how to work with the 640 x 480 30 fps clips from my Canon point and shoot, and how to output a video file of good quality and acceptable size.

I have two more cameras that can take video with higher resolutions and frame rates. I thought I'd tackle them by resolution size, working with the 720 x 480p videos from my camcorder first and then the videos from my Nikon DSLR.

So now I'm trying to import, edit and output 720 x 480p resolution videos from my camcorder. Those are what my last post is about. Sorry again for the confusion. Maybe my last few posts will make more sense now.

-----

First if the files are Quicktime why are you converting to AVI?

Because it gives excellent quality output at 59.94 fps. The file size is huge though. The other file formats have a very noticeable drop in quality. In particular, the Quicktime output did not work very well at. The output video file, using the MPEG 4 visual compression, would not play smoothly in my media players, often freezing, and the image quality was not good compared to the original. Changing the quality setting from 1% to 100% did nothing; the file size and quality stayed the same. Is the MPEG 4 visual compression H.264? I did not see an option for H.264 compression when choosing Quicktime output.

First change the background colour (F6) to any but black, this will allow you to identify the preview frames shape, now add your QuickTime video to the top timeline.

Settings -- Project Properties, (Alt+Enter) –
Edit Format as MpegFiles –
Edit-- make sure Non – Square Pixel Rendering is selected.
Compression tab as NTSC
General tab—set Aspect ratio to 16:9
You can ignore all other settings

How does your video display as in the preview screen?
Do you see any background colour.

No, the image fills the preview screen, so I guess the video is 720 x 480 resolution with non-square pixels. But still the Videostudio properties say the frame size is 854 x 480:

File
File format: QuickTime Movie Files
Movie size: 854 x 480

Video Track 1
Compression: Ambarella AVC encoder
Attributes: 24 bits, 720 x 480
Frame rate: 59.94 frame(s)

Sound
Compression: MPEG-4 Audio
Attributes: 48,000 kHz, 16 bits, Stereo

I think the Ambrarella compression is a kind of H.264 but might just be proprietary hardware based, without a software encoder available for download.

-------

Video Studio X4 does not edit 59fps, although there may be a workround to set the project properties to use 59

I was able to get the timeline at 60fps in a procedure that was outlined in another thread: "VS X4 supported Frame Rates?"

When I outputted to the AVI type file mentioned above, it looks like the output is 59.94 fps, according to my media players' file properties.

But the huge file size makes AVI output not useable in practice. And there is still something funky with the output:

I took two clips and joined them by a side transition, just like with the 640 x 480 clips we've been discussing so far. After reading a thread on this forum on how to set the timeline to 59.94fps, I was able to create an avi file with true 59.94fps fairly easily. It almost worked flawlessly. I only tried a side roll transition. The video almost came out completely ok, except that the edges at the sides of the green bar are not solid but have thin teeth, like a comb. I'm thinking it might have something to do with interlacing because the only way I could get 59.94fps was not to choose frame based, but either upper or lower field first?

So, unless you have some magic template formula like you gave me for the previous 640 x 480 clips from my other camera, to manage the size of the output files and still give acceptable quality, I am at a loss about what to do further.

Thanks,

tommy

[Ken Berry]

When you chose AVI as the output format, what did you choose on the Compression tab as the actual format. (As you may be aware, apart from uncompressed 'true' AVI, there are over 800 formats which use the .avi wrapper extension.) By your description of the new file being huge, I suspect you could be using the uncompressed format which is indeed huge at about 65 GB (yes GB) per hour of video. But if you check the other formats available under the AVI compression drop down menu, there may be one which produces smaller files but still using 59.94 (or 60) fps. Personally, I installed a free and very useful codec called ffdshow which appears under this heading, and has a wide variety of settings.

[tommy12]

Ken,
I had ffdshow installed and tried it, but it gave me an error when I tried to set the size to 720 x 480 or 854 x 480 and then clicked OK. I got the error message "the video codec is unable to compress the video with the specified frame size [17103:1:1]. Maybe it has something to do with non-square pixels? I notice that under the codec configuration options>encoder>output there is an input for pixel aspect ratio. Right now it's set to 1:1

Thanks,

tommy

[Ken Berry]

So which AVI format did you choose?