AVCHD to Blu Ray

[Phil]

Hi again,

I've a professional Panasonic camera capable of 720p and 1080p AVCHD recording both at 50 or 25 frames per sec (PAL). My recent clips are AVCHD h.264 50fps @ 24000-26000kbps. I usually render the file to film first, then create a disc after. I use VSP x5

For a short edited film (less than 5gb), I'm happy to make an AVCHD full-HD disc and enjoy a seamless and lossless transfer from project to a standard disc. The picture quality seems true to the original recording.

Q1) For longer films where I need to use a Blu Ray, what exactly is the best route to take and what boxes should be (or not) checked?? I did create a Blu Ray disc using the largest output 35000kbps max and I thought afterwards the footage looked a bit "contrasty" and second hand.

Q2) I've read in the forums that 50fps for 1080p Blu Ray is not available yet (hence the conversion to 25fps). Is it available at 720P and what/where are the settings?

Q3) If I know before filming that I'll be needing a Blu Ray, is it advisable to shoot the original at 25fps to avoid deterioration at render stage?

Q4) For downsizing to 720x576 Standard Definition discs, do I need smart render on? Two pass encode? for best quality?

Bottom line = I want to avoid my footage being unnecassarily hauled through rendering hoops and the final AVCHD or Blu Ray to be as best it can. Any other advice welcome.

Thanks gentlemen

Phil

[lata]

Hi Phil

I do not use HD at the moment but think you may have answered your own questions.

If you are intending to create a DVD then you should record to 25 fps.
If your target ordinance is the internet then 50 fps would give better quality, at least you would assume that.

There is the option to burn a Hybrid disc, AVCHD on standard DVD, I assume this would support 50fps. (maybe that’s what you are referring to in your second paragraph)

You could of course not bother with discs, but save the 50fps as a file on a memory stick, playing that on the TV via the USB port.
I believe Ken uses this approach, whether he uses 50fps is irrelevant it’s the media that’s changed.

If you want Bluray then record using 25fps. As Q3

Smart Render works by comparing the original video with the new rendered video properties, Fully rendering edits and I suppose copying the unaltered portions, smart render.
Down scaling from 1920 x 1080 frame size to 720 x 576 for standard definition requires a full render, you are changing every frame.
Smart Render being on will have no effect. My thought would be to turn it off.

The bottom line, for a disc record to 25 fps, when you render the video file use the properties of the original recording?

I am sure the HD users will comment on this topic.

[erdna]

Blu-ray discs and AVCHD discs are not 1080p50 compatible. Only AVCHD(2) files are 1080p50 compatible. If you need an HD disc, you need 25 fps (50i). If yr original video is 1080p50 you have a problen, unless you do an "in camera" 50p>50i AVCHD conversion. Why? Because all SW converter (including VSX5) seem to use only 1 frame out of 2 for 50p to 50i conversion. So you end up with a 25p refresh. SD DVD has besides the 50-25 issue, also a rescaling quality problem. VSX5 is relatively good as compared to other for HD>DVD creation. Go for MPEG2 with high (8000Kbps) if you have less the 1 hour video for yr SD DVD
Like Lata mentions, go for 50i if you want discs, to keep it simple. I use 108p50 with a mediaplayer and for YT uploads.

[Ken Berry]

Q2) I've read in the forums that 50fps for 1080p Blu Ray is not available yet (hence the conversion to 25fps). Is it available at 720P and what/where are the settings?

Just a brief note in addition to erdna's useful reply... In fact, under the international *Blu-Ray* standard, 720p is the only format which can be burnt to Blu-Ray discs at the full 50 (PAL) and 59.94 (NTSC) frames per second. Note that this is not a limitation in Video Studio, but a limitation in the international standard. I suspect they are going to have to change things, given the wide availability of camcorders which can film at full 1080p 50/60 fps.

Note also that though the international *AVCHD* standard does in fact include full 1080p 50/60 fps and a max bitrate of 28 mbps, and though in general AVCHD is a Blu-Ray format, there is a significant exception -- namely, that for the purposes of burning a Blu-Ray disc, the Blu-Ray standard does NOT yet include 1080p 50/60 fps AVCHD, only 720p. Clear as mud??

[Phil]

Just burned a Blu Ray and it was perfect - and I'm hard to please!

Instead of rendering a file first, I just selected Create Disc, and dragged the VSP file into the DVD maker once it opened. Slowest burn rate chosen, 2 pass convesrion, full blu ray 35,000kbps max, anti-virus switched off, Panasonic blu ray discs and it looks great on my 50" plasma! Mind you, took 6 hours to produce a 33min film but as its a family gift, it was worth it.

Now - final question about the saved folders. If I get a request for an additional disc, where do I open the project from to save me waiting another 6hours? I'm looking at two folders named BDMV & Certificate but neither seem to reopen the project for another burn.

Help!

Phil

[erdna]

Maybe ImgBurn (free) wil do the job. Make an iso from yr BDMV and Certificate folder and burn it to disc(BD), both with ImgBurn.

[Ken Berry]

Or as an alternative, on the final page of the VS burn module, tick 'Create Blu-Ray folders' as well as burning to disk. That folder can then also be burnt to disc as many times as you want using ImgBurn... or some other program such as Nero or Ashampoo Burning Studio.

[Sph1nxster]

Phil,

I've read the replies posted here and I thought I would throw my tuppence worth in here to perhaps clarify some points.
We run a Wedding Video business that specializes in Blu Ray output and have been doing this successfully now for over two years.

Workflow -

- It may be surprising to hear that we output to Blu Ray at 720 / 50p Format. This, in our opinion, looks much clearer than 1080 50i and motion in video looks stunning. We tried many combinations of frame rates and conversion and the only one that produced silky smooth motion and clarity was 720/50p. We filmed at 24 fps (Blu ray 1080/24p standard) and motion was not good but image was excellent. We then went through a period of time filming at 1080/25p, this was then converted to 1080/50i and produced reasonable motion but image had deteriorated, second hand as you put it. Finally once our cameras were capable, we filmed at 1080/50p and converted to 720/50p in Corel X5, result is fantastically smooth motion that can be slowed down to 50% if required for individual shots, and image looks great. A lot of people do not realise that 720 can look great given the correct settings.

If you think this is something that could work for you then I can give a full run through of my workflow, but please bear in mind I do not use Corel's in built Blu Ray maker, and instead use NERO 11. Reason being, better menus and better overall success rate with their smart encoding system. I can make a two hour blu ray in under an hour and without the PC going into melt down.

The beauty with filming at 1080/50p and converting to 720/50p is that we use the same rendered files to make DVDs as well. 50p converts to 25p very fast and retains good motion. Not as good as 50p but then what do you expect.

Again we put the individual rendered 720/50p files into NERO and then make a DVD with 25p settings.

Hope some of this helps.

Steve

[Flashclicker]

You can create an AVCHD-Video Disc with 720/50p in Nero Vision 10 and if you are clever, you can get ca 70 - 72 minute of video footage on a single layer DVD in 720/50p .... so you keep the framerate but you have a little loss in resolution. But this result is better than convert 1080/50p to 1080/25i files in my opinion.

AVCHD 2.0 is supported in Nero Vision 12, that means, it contains 1080/50p formats on AVCHD-2.0 disc, but 1080/50p it´s NOT supported by creating a BluRay Disc, cos it´s over standard. But I don´t know, if it´s possible to create a bluray disc with it that way by creating a AVCHD-2.0 structure on HD and then burn those folder structure on a Bluray-Disc. Maybe it works I cannto find out, cos I don´t have Nero 12.

So it seems to be possible to create 1080/50p in Nero 12 but not for BluRays, only for DVD´s. I dunno if it´s worth creating those DVD´s cos of the fact 1080/50p files are very big. I assume you can get max 30 minutes footage on a single Layer DVD and 60 minutes on a dual Layer DVD ... and those videofiles seems to have ONLY acceptable but not satisfying quality concerning video appereance ...

Maybe someone confirm who owns Nero 12, that it is possible to create a AVCHD-2.0 structure on HD in High Quality and then burning these created files on a BluRay Disc that still works on BluRay Players withz menues, chapters, etc. etc. ???

[sging2]

Phil,

Workflow -

If you think this is something that could work for you then I can give a full run through of my workflow, but please bear in mind I do not use Corel's in built Blu Ray maker, and instead use NERO 11. Reason being, better menus and better overall success rate with their smart encoding system. I can make a two hour blu ray in under an hour and without the PC going into melt down.

Steve

Hi Steve, I find your summarised work flow very interesting and I would love to see your full workflow run through. I think we may have similar cameras. I have the Panasonic AG-AC160A that films in 1080/50p. I to have been experimenting but have not yet determined the correct settings to use. I also film weddings.

You will see from one of my recent posts that I have been trying to find the correct settings for Blu Ray and standard DVD using the AVCHD files from the camera. I have an older but quite powerful duel quad core liquid cooled PC but when I try to render blu ray it crashed the whole computer to a restart unless I down clock the processors slightly and turn off hardware acceleration. It then produces the Blu ray but I cannot work out in VS 5 what setting and tick boxes to use to get the ideal video files for DVD and Blu Ray. I was interested to read you use Nero to burn your files to disk.

Regards
Stephen

[Phil]

Hi Stephen,

I've the same Panny as you.

As Ken mentioned earlier, I did create the folders and will reuse them for one-off DVD requests. I guessed cutting as many "middle-man" renders would be a key to everything and was considering trying to record the original @ 720/50p on the Panny for Blu Ray purposes, so that VSP wouldn't have to work as hard.

The Create Disc in VSP is useful as you can measure exactly the bitrate against DVD capacity without guessing on a rendered output

I'm reluctant to add more 3rd party authoring to the process unless the software gives clear indication it's not doing another render.

But yes, I'm always willing to listen to more workflows!

Phil

[sging2]

Can someone explain the workflow on how to render a file in Blu Ray at 720 / 50p Format. I went through the different setting but cant see how to get this done.

regards
Stephen

[lata]

Hi Steve

Bluray at the moment does not support 50fps
If you created a template using 50 it would be HD but not Bluray compliant,
Read the reply from Flashclicker

http://forum.corel.com/EN/viewtopic.php ... 17#p258911

View Share Create Video File – Bluray – any option opens the Create Video File window.
View the properties in the lower panel notice they all use 25 fps (for Pal)
Now do the same for AVCHD, some options use 50P.

For reference copy and paste the properties to a note pad/word pad.

Using Make Movie Templates Manager you should be able to replicate the template and if required tweak it to the settings you require.

If you are intending to burn a DVD then you should record to 25fps otherwise you will have to convert 50 to 25 to burn a disc. This of course may impact on the quality.
Same for Standard DVD, these use Mpeg2 files, the compliant files being known as (Pal-DVD) again these use 25fps.

Please tell us the properties of your original video file.
Then we may be able to advise on conversion settings for a Bluray disc and Standard DVD disc.

[Ken Berry]

Trevor wrote:

Bluray at the moment does not support 50fps

Sorry Trevor, but as I said above:

In fact, under the international *Blu-Ray* standard, 720p is the only format which can be burnt to Blu-Ray discs at the full 50 (PAL) and 59.94 (NTSC) frames per second. Note that this is not a limitation in Video Studio, but a limitation in the international standard. I suspect they are going to have to change things, given the wide availability of camcorders which can film at full 1080p 50/60 fps.

For what it is worth, see the very detailed explanation of the Blu-Ray standard at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc -- about half way down is a chart showing all the formats and fps which can be burnt to Blu-Ray. The only ones using 59.94/50 fps which are included are 1280 x 720p ones...

sging2 -- Although when you select Create Video File > Blu-Ray, there is not option for 1280 x 720p, if you look at Create Video File > AVCHD, then the last option is 1280 x 720 50P (or 60P if NTSC). You render to that format. Then you start a New project -- just to clear the timeline. Then select Share > Create Disc > Blu-Ray. The burning module should open and its timeline should be empty. If anything is in it, delete it. Then add your new 1280 x 720 50P file. In the second of the four small icons in the bottom left of the burning screen, make sure "Do not convert compliant MPEG files" is ticked (it should be, by default). That way no further conversion of your video should occur during the burning process.

EDIT: I just carried out an experiment along the lines outlined in the last para above, but it didn't work out quite as I explained! I first created a new video file -- as outlined -- at 1280 x 720 50P. When I inserted that in the burning module (selecting Blu-Ray as the output), and created a notional menu, I then made sure the 'Do not convert' box was ticked. On the final page of the burning module, I selected 'Create Blu-Ray Folder' instead of actually burning a disc. (Blu-Ray blanks are very expensive here in New Zealand!) But when I clicked 'Burn", the module proceeded to 'Convert Title', which of course meant that it was converting the 1280 x 720 50P video, which I didn't think it would do.

At the end of the process, I had all the necessary Blu-Ray folders, with the converted video in the STREAM sub-folder, as normal. I then inserted the main video file from that (00000.m2ts) into the VS library to check its properties. I found that though it had correctly burnt using both the 1280 x 720 frame format and at 50 frames per second, it had converted the video to Blu-Ray compliant high def mpeg-2 transport stream (which curiously enough, under the international standard, encompasses both proper mpeg-2 and also AVCHD mpeg-4. VS does the same when you select 'mpeg transport stream' as the format under Custom where you can set it to produce either Blu-Ray mpeg-2 or AVCHD.) It had also done the conversion at the VS bitrate for Blu-Ray of 35 Mbps instead of the 12 Mbps of my original AVCHD. Quality looks pretty good too.

So the bottom line seems to be that you *can* burn 1280 x 720 50P video to Blu-Ray BUT it will be converted to Blu-Ray compliant mpeg transport stream using those properties and a higher bitrate than the original.

[Ken Berry]

Further to my Edit note above, I just carried out another experiment. Instead of rendering my original video to AVCHD 1280 x 720 50P, I instead chose Custom. Then selected MPEG Transport Stream as the format. In the Compression tab under Options, I set the output video format as MPEG-2 rather than ticking the AVCHD box. I also set the bitrate to 35 Mbps. On the General tab, I found I could still have 1280 x 720 at 50P. I then rendered to a new file with those properties.

I then started a new project to clear the timeline and selected Share > Create Disc > Blu-Ray. I inserted my new file and again, on the last page, select Blu-Ray folders as the output. This time the "burn" was very quick and no conversion took place. When I extracted the 0000.m2ts file, it showed exactly the same properties as the new rendered file i.e. 1280 x 720 50P at 35 Mbps. Quality again was very good.

So that would appear to be the way to go.