VS Pro5 Data Rate Issue

[sza]

I'm relatively new at video editing so VS Pro5 has been my first venture into this world. I use a rendering program called Lumion to generate video from the architectural models I create at full 1080p. The problem that I seem to be having is that Corel doesn't support the data rate that the Lumion videos tend to be. My current walkthrough is a 1080p mp4 video and windows tells me its data rate is 42435 kbps. When I import into VS pro5 it tells me the same video is 42180 kbps. When I try to export the clip the program always reduces the data rate to a level that ruins the visual fidelity of the clip. I have tried the custom export and the program won't let me enter higher than 20000 kbps and when I tried the method of using the first clip settings it still reduces the clip down to 36510 kbps which is better but still not the original data rate. Is there something I'm missing or VS Pro5 have data rate limits?

Is 42435 kbps a ridiculous amount for data rate for 1920 x 1080 30f/s video? I don't know a thing on data rates but I'm assuming it's why I'm losing quality in my final video. The 42435kbps clip runs fine on my machine but what should rate should I be considering for my clients to use?

Thank you for any help.

[Ken Berry]

I am afraid that 20,000 kbps is the maximum data rate that Video Studio can produce in full AVCHD format, which is what I am assuming your 1080p video is. Indeed, the international standard for AVCHD currently has a maximum data rate of 28 Mbps (28,000 kbps), and we are hoping that the next version of VS will match that. I am not aware of any consumer editing program which goes higher than that, though there might be some at the professional end of the market where you may need to be looking.

The only other thing I can think of to suggest is to convert your footage into Blu-Ray mpeg-2 footage (Share > Create Video File > Blu-Ray). AVCHD is also Blu-Ray compliant but is mpeg-4. The (slight) advantage of using the Blu-Ray route is that it allows, in VS, a maximum data rate of 35 Mbps. But since you are apparently getting better than this using the "same as first clip" setting, there would seem to be little point in that.

By the way, when you say

When I try to export the clip the program always reduces the data rate to a level that ruins the visual fidelity of the clip.

By this, do you mean only that the visual clarity of the video is reduced, or is there also flickering or anything else happening? I ask since it has been my experience at least that AVCHD even at 18 Mbps and HDV at 25 Mbps, both produce stunning clarity...

[sza]

Ken, thank you for your quick response.

I probably should have made the image bigger but I have attached why I think the data rate is an issue. It is a cropped screen capture of the video, before an after vs pro5, the top is what the video looks like out of my rendering program. the bottom is the best export from vs pro5 (I need it to add a title and company logo). The point of the video is to show the new panel products on this building so the lines in the texture are really important to show even viewing the building from a far like in the transitions moving from one view point to another view point.

So is .mp4 an AVCHD? How did I get this video that is bigger than what AVCHD can handle in terms of data rate.

I'm sure video can look great at 18 mbps or 25 mbps but I don't really have many options in my program other than fps, resolution, and mp4 or an image sequence output so I'm just trying to deal with what I have. I'll have to test what using a image sequence will produce, can I use the stop motion function to turn my images into a video sequence or will I have to convert my images to video before I get to vs pro5?

In the end I don't want vs pro5 to do anything to the clip other than add a title and watermark but that doesn't seem to be the case here...

[Ken Berry]

So is .mp4 an AVCHD?

MPEG-4 is the general category. AVCHD is a sub-set of mpeg-4, being high definition mpeg-4 produced with the H264 codec. There are other varieties of mpeg-4, both high def (e.g. .mov) and standard def. Some even call themselves .avi (DivX and XVid).

How did I get this video that is bigger than what AVCHD can handle in terms of data rate.

One characteristic of mpegs generally (mpeg-1, mpeg-2, mpeg-4) is that they use a variable bitrate. Your program happens to use a higher variable bitrate than VS is currently capable of dealing with properly. Some other programs use even higher bitrates (some over 120 Mbps). VS can't deal properly with them either.

I'm sure video can look great at 18 mbps or 25 mbps but I don't really have many options in my program other than fps, resolution, and mp4 or an image sequence output

Does your program allow you to set a bitrate of 18 or 20 Mbps? If so, how does that look when edited in VS? I have looked at the Lumion website, but there is no obvious answer there. This photo shows the properties page, but nowhere is a data rate set out, including in the specs list. I suspect the only way of reducing the bitrate would be to reduce the number of stars at the top in "Final Output Quality". It could be worth trying that out and assessing the end result.

... can I use the stop motion function to turn my images into a video sequence or will I have to convert my images to video before I get to vs pro5?

I have never done any stop motion work so I can't answer that one. Hopefully someone else who has used that function will provide an answer.

[sza]

Ken thank you for your response, not really the answers I was hoping for but I'm curious now with VS x6 and quad HD can I edit my large data rate videos without them being effected or is VS is gonig to cap it?

[Ken Berry]

Disappointingly, X6 has retained the same limitations for the maximum bitrate for AVCHD, namely 18 Mbps (or 20 Mbps for AVCREC). I certainly raised the need for a higher bitrate for that format during the beta testing process for X6, suggesting that it at least match the current international standard maximum of 28 Mbps, but Corel indicated they did not have time for a full re-write of the relevant code, but would include the higher bitrate in X7.

That being said, they have at least included the capacity to edit 4K video -- though I have not yet tried this with 4K video produced with my GoPro Hero 3... which admittedly is not going to be top quality 4K, but at least should allow me to experiment a bit. As I understand it, the max bitrate for that in X6 stands at 60 Mbps. I also believe that for Blu-Ray mpeg-2 transport stream format (as opposed to AVCHD mpeg-4 Blu-Ray format), the same new max bitrate of of 60 Mbps also applies. At least I seem to be able to set the properties that way when I select Share > Create Video File > Custom, then select "MPEG Transport Stream (.m2ts)" as the output format and then under the Compression tab select mpeg-2 instead of ticking the AVCHD box.

[Natal]

The problem is that when you add your watermark, the footage is going to be re-encoded no matter what else you do. There is no way around that, no matter what you do or which program you use. So, you are probably going to suffer loss of quality. At the bit rates you have, that should not be noticeable under normal circumstances. However, the H.264 encoder in VS appears to have some quality issues (IMO) so it may not be a resolvable issue for your particular application.

Have you considered using a different editing program? I am assuming that this footage is for a professional presentation, if so then it might be worth your while to use something like PP or another professional program which would allow you greater control over the output.

[sza]

Ken, thanks for trying, not sure if I want to wait for x7, I'm tempted to try making 4k project and cropping it but even that seems outside my understanding (...if it was as easy as photoshop...).

Natal, the video's I make are for a small architecture firm to sell their clients, the program that makes the video doesn't have very good editing controls so I want to use VS to put clips together and add titles because it's cheap and I have no experience with video production, so yeah I guess it will be re-encoded. From what I've seen by doing this, the quality is reduced too much. I'm not an expert in this realm but I can clearly see the difference in quality, I tried moviemaker which was slightly better but I want to try again, my data rate changes from video to video so I need to try some other videos to see how they are reduced. Do you mean premiere by pp?

Thanks for you help!

[lata]

Hi

After reading the various posts here, I cannot understand why 20000kbps is not good enough, especially when viewed on the PC monitor having a relatively small screen.
20000kbps should produce very good quality video.
Ken did mention using Transport Stream and Mpeg2 compression. This would allow you to set 42435 kbps, not 30 fps but 29.97?

There is the option to choose MPEG4 HD which should again produce good quality, defaults to 15000, but can use 20000kbps by creating your own templates.

Is the option Share Create video file-Same as first Video Available to you?

So what options have you tried, and which produces the best quality.?

As I say its quite strange that you are not producing good video files?

[Natal]

Ya, PP is Premiere Pro. There are a number of other high end editing programs available as well.

From the pictures he posted the problem is that the rendering is eliminating fine details he wants shown (due to compression).

These sorts of things happen whenever you re-encode, mostly you might not notice them if your bit rate is high enough and if there is enough in the image to distract the eye.

In his case the walls are compressed to a single color, when they actually contain details he wants the client to see, so for him it is a big issue.

The implementation of the H.264 encoder Corel uses is inadequate for high quality HD footage, it damages the frames too much, especially at default bit rates. He is using a much higher bit rate, both before and after rendering, but even so the damage is obvious.

I would suggest trying out other software packages (you might need to find someone who has them, since demo versions often disable parts of the HD codecs due to licensing issues)

I think the only solution for him unless he wants to invest in more sophisticated software (no guarentee that the problem won't happen to some extent there as well though) is to leave the watermark out so that he can use smartrender. That would allow him to avoid rendering those segments and damaging them.