Please Help: want to shoot raw but can't!

[ChrisC]

Sure I can shoot raw but let me explain what I am struggling with...

I consider the JPG out-of-the-camera as the result of the cameras own raw converter doing some magic tricks I don't know.
With most of my images I am not possible to produce an equal good result.

I understand the advantages that RAW gives me and want to make use of them - but as long as I can't get at least similar good results it loses its purpose. (It's the result that counts - not the theoretical possibility.)

So please help if you can.

- Do you have default settings for Nikon RAW that produce great results - are you willing to share those?
- Can you do better than Nikons internal conversion?

I would like to share a RAW and JPG sample but could not upload the files here (any tips?)
(Error: "The image file you tried to attach is invalid.")
Points where I find that the JPG is superior:
- color of the skin (e.g. boy on the right - reddish - especially the ear)
- red halo e.g. arm of the boy on the left
- color of the grass (keep the color of the grass natural after correcting the reddish skin)
- brightness dispersion of the grass and keeping contrast/details after correction

At the moment I assume there is a special curve that would result in a similar image.
But my fear is that the camera is analysing every image and applies different settings to get those results.

[ChrisC]

Here the samples (via dropbox):
JPG: http://db.tt/OYUZp80W
RAW: http://db.tt/XBAMsfyR

[Dutchmm]

Hmm

I think you could do with a change in WB - I don't know what setting you used, but you get a bit more pop using the eye-dropper on one of the white shirt hoops.
And a small amount of LAB tool and wavelet denoise:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/k34beaaa9968e ... 08-000.jpg

I am afraid I don't know much about modifying skin tones - AS and my Sony A55 seem made for each other. But the tones - as displayed on my monitor seem similar as between my AS results and those that came out of your camera.

HTH

Mike

[afx]

Is the t-shirt of the boy on the right red as displayed by AS or orange as in the JPG?
Bibble always hat slightly different reds from the rest of the world and that continues with AS.
Depending on the subject it can be a bit of a problem.
I would think redoing the profile for the D3100 might be in order. to fix that.

cheers
afx

[ChrisC]

@Dutchmm: Thanks for your help - much appreciate it.
Unfortunately your result seems to have similar color problems like my tries.
The grass has an unnatural green, the skin is too red and the red halo still exists
(and all those 'problems' don't exist in the out-of-camera-JPG).

@afx: thanks as well
"I would think redoing the profile for the D3100 might be in order. to fix that."
Do I understand you correct? You mean something that corel would have to do -
not something I can do? This would be bad news given that this is very unlikely.

[ChrisC]

I just tried what LR can do:
JPG Export: http://db.tt/Sjj01FCj

I could get rid of the reddish skin tone (but only with a special color shift - nothing that would work for every image).
The red halo still exists.

Does this mean someone can only enjoy the benefit of RAW
if he finds a converter that matches perfectly with the camera model?
This seems to be a very awkward limitation.

[SteveCase]

Question....
Why would one not expect to see reddish skin tones on hard playing, flushed faced children, running around on a red brick colored surface?

[afx]

Do I understand you correct? You mean something that corel would have to do -
not something I can do? This would be bad news given that this is very unlikely.

Yes.
You could of course create your own profile. AS allows the loading of custom profiles.

But you did not answer my question, is the t-shirt really red or orange?

cheers
afx

[afx]

Question....
Why would one not expect to see reddish skin tones on hard playing, flushed faced children, running around on a red brick colored surface?

That is not the point. But the different way it is shown in the Nikon JPG and the AS raw file.
I do agree though, on this image the skin tone difference is minimal. For me it is in the matter of taste range. The red edge on the other hand is more bothersome. But this is an effect of AS sharpening. With Wavelet Sharpen it is gone.
That leaves the t-shirt color...

cheers
afx

[ChrisC]

Question....
Why would one not expect to see reddish skin tones on hard playing, flushed faced children, running around on a red brick colored surface?

Your point is valid! If the RAW shows how it was and the JPG shows how I would like it to be -> then I can't blame the converter but rather my (bad?) taste It's hard to recall but I assume that the red regions in the RAW are a bit more than in reality (the kids had just began to play) - but I could be wrong.

Could the red surface have a noticeable impact on only parts of the skin? I would expect such an effect to be more evenly spread!?

[ChrisC]

The red edge on the other hand is more bothersome. But this is an effect of AS sharpening. With Wavelet Sharpen it is gone.
That leaves the t-shirt color...

Sorry for ignoring the t-shirt color question. To be true I could not see such a great difference and it's also hard to recall the exact color of the shirt. To answer the question: I think it was red.

Regarding the red edge: Thanks for the hint with sharpening.
I tried to use WavletSharpen and it got better - but it didn't disappear - JPG still was better. Maybe I didn't find the right values?

The best news to me would be that all was my mistake - because this would lead me to a solution.

[Pho]

I looked at you RAW in both ASP and LR4. It's pretty simple, your white balance is far off.Try 4050K and -69 for the tint (instead of 4700K and +6). The shirt is just red, normal.
What puzzles me is why your JPG is better... We would need to know the jpg setting of your body to clarify that.

PS it's nice to try to shoot in manual, but here your picture is underexposed. This causes a high noise even though it is only ISO 400.

[andrewh]

Just had a quick go at this because a friend was playing with my AS and a Nikon.

I got rid of the red halo with CA 0.08 towards Cyan. I note there is a cyan halo on both pictures on that same kid's left shoulder.

If the shirt was red then it is pretty easy to get good colours in the Raw. The JPEG is simply wrong as it is clearly orange in the JPEG.

Oh, I just noticed that it is a Spanish soccer shirt. I would reckon AS has got that colour just about spot on on my screen. I just compared it to a shirt at Amazon - pretty good. Perhaps the yellow is slightly pale but it is a previous generation shirt so may have faded a touch in the wash. The JPEG is woeful unless the shirt is terribly faded.

End of experiment

HTH
Andrew

[ChrisC]

Thanks for all your replies and for taking the time - I really appreciate your hints

@Andrew "I got rid of the red halo with CA 0.08 towards Cyan"
Thanks - that did the trick

@Pho "Try 4050K and -69 for the tint (instead of 4700K and +6)."
Thanks for your suggestion too. I will try this at home (with a calibrated monitor). At the moment your suggestion seems to produce a nice red on the shirt but the rest of the picture gets a strange color cast. Strange: "as shot" shows 5538K +15 ?

To recap:
The shirt should be red and RAW is fine in this regard.
Maybe the reddish skin is also more near reality. Anyway, it is more a matter of taste and not a big problem.
The red halo can be eliminated using CA 0,08 towards cyan.
Maybe the white balance is still wrong?

One thing that still bothers me is the brightness and detail of the grass. I like that the grass in the JPG is more evenly lit. But trying to add some fill light results in losing the detail (contrast) in the grass.

Thanks again
Chris

P.S: yes, the image is underexposed and the Nikon D3100 has a poor ISO performance

[Dutchmm]

Whoever said your WB was off was on the money, IMHO
But I think your settings are leaning too much towards blue and green.
I put the sample into AS on my desktop overnight - where the monitor calibration and light are more consistent.
First effort - trying to eliminate clipping of the blue and green channels:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wx3bm24z3buc5 ... 08-002.jpg

then getting rid (with wavelet denoise) of the red around Espana's ear:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/bme4ms36rxl7a ... 08-004.jpg

Just to make sure I wasn't going bananas (a common event round here), I tried the picture in SilkyPix DS v5:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3q7w8crgsb3j0 ... 08-008.jpg

They suggest a WB of about 4600. And a colour shift. As far as shooting with the wrong WB setting, I am what a British newspaper once accidentally called "a battle scared veteran". And if we don't get that right, we are condemned to millions of micro adjustments that each b*gger up some combination of micro adjustments with which we weren't quite happy.

To sum up: it isn't the software; it's the WB.