VS X5 loses sound between clips?

[Davidk]

I've been using X5 to edit a project that has about 20 small clips in it. I've noted that (1st occurrence of this) moving from one clip to the next in the main project timeline, the sound in the next clip just vanishes. Selecting the affected clip individually and then playing confirmed its got sound there.

This was first seen after turning ripple editing on (the little padlock went from open to closed). But various measures did not remove the effect:
- turning ripple editing off
- delecting the affected clip - the next clip in turn was affected by this
- closing X5 without saving the project changes, then re-starting X5 and opening that project. At the same point in the timeline, sound went away.

Is there any known explanation for this, and how can I remove this effect?

Davidk

[Ken Berry]

No known explanation ... and in fact I have not heard this specific complaint before.

But you haven't actually given us any information about the video concerned. Is it all from the same source i.e. does every clip have the same properties? Please right click on one of the clips in the timeline, if they are all the same, and copy ALL its Properties here. Then we might have a better idea of what we are dealing with.

Can you also advise whether, as a test, you have rendered the project into a new clip (Share > Create Video File)? Is the problem still there?

[Davidk]

Hi Ken,

The project file has 39 clips in it (I counted), and the whole thing is about 9 minutes long. And I've been working on it from the start progressively. In the middle of the sequence there are 3 clips where this effect occurs, which I'll call A, B, and C. I was working on clip A and truncated it (markout, F4) by a few seconds, and then turned the ripple effect on. I may have done the truncation whilst in the project view, but can't be sure. Later removal of that truncation did not remove the effect reported. I also tried complete deletion of clips A and B from the project file, and then reinserted them. That did not work either.

The effect is: in the project timeline, clip A plays, clip B plays but has no sound, and sound comes back when clip C plays. All 3 clips have good video. It's as tho clip B has the mute button selected, except that in the normal edit view with that clip selected, it's not.

The effect seems to occur only in the project view or file. Individually the clips play with audio. I did do a trial render of the whole project as requested and the effect replicates in the result.

I attach property images for clips A and B. Clip C has the same properties as A, and in doing this I note that I'll have to do some re-work on the video aspect ration of clip A (but that's just incidental).

Davidk

[lata]

Hi

Have you applied any edits to the volume via the sound mixer.
First right click the clip and view the panel mute and fade options. Change them if any has been applied.

Click the Sound Mixer icon below the preview screen
Right click the clip ans select Reset Volume

Play he clips again, any improvement?

[Davidk]

Hi,

Those suggestions served to confirm that the sound was zeroed for clip B, but the mute option was not on. the get a smoother audio between clips I had the fade in selected for clip A and fade out selected for clip B. At the moment there isn't a "transition" (usually my preference is cross-fade) specified between these 2 clips. For the moment I haven't made any changes to the mix selections for clip B in the hope of finding what did this.

I've taken 2 more screen shots of the transition to clip B, and the transition from clip B, attached. There wasn't anything that seemed relevant in the attributes panel, but the video panel did confirm that for clip B the sound had been zeroed. These images show the audio mix into and out of clip B with a part of the video panel in the image.

The project VSP file is about 392Kb, and not obviously readable with ordinary tools like notepad. If you have a reader that could diagnose what's wrong in it I could send that vsp file as well.

Davidk

[Davidk]

More info . . .
I spent some time experimenting with a copy of the original VSP, and then several practice projects with just 2 clips in it to try and isolate whatever was causing it. The experiments seemed to indicate that the problem clip was (somehow) B. For example, A+B gave sound fading in the transition from A to B (per the issue above). But A+C has no sound issues when transitioning from A to C.

So I put B and C together and took several more images of the sound mix at the transition point, when playing clip B as a clip, versus when playing B as part of the project file. The images show the project/clip status of clip B, and the video edit tab showing the sound mix state for the clip at that point.

The first of these is playing clip B as a clip. As a clip, the sound is great even tho the sound line seems within the clip in the timeline is flat lined.

The second is playing clip B as part of the project. In this sequence, sound on clip B is silent.

Davidk

[lata]

Hi David

Two points, the images in the posts seem to be in the wrong order, not a problem we can sort that. ( but a little pushed for time will do that later)

The wave form for clip "B" doesn't exist
it does not look as though that particular clip has audio

Play this file using one of your media players, does it contain sound?

[Davidk]

Yep, that's the problem. And when that clip is in the timeline of X5, and the selection is clip, then play, the audio is there as I outlined previously. I also opened that clip in media player and the audio sounds fine. It's only when that clip (B) is played as part of the project file (selection is project, then play) that the sound is missing.

The audio mix function indicates absence of an audio track in the video file, and it looks like the results of a split audio function, with the separated audio track then deleted. However if that were the case, why does the audio play when the clip function is selected?

There's not a ready explanation for the fact that in audio mix the sound level indicator for clip B is zero, and in video edit the sound level indicator for the same clip is 60, but there's no sound on project file play.

And it seems to have impacted on the clip itself, at least when used with X5: in test with X5 I have
- deleted clip B from the VSP (which should have removed any entries related to it, as for example splitting/deleting the audio track from the video), and then re-inserted it. same problem.
- created a new project file: deleted the affected clip and all after it, saved the VSP that resulted as a new file name, opened that new file and re-inserted clip B. Problem not fixed.
- opened a new project, inserted that clip B into the timeline and checked the play results. Same as the original VSP, as outlined in prior posts.
but when opened in other players
- opened that clip B in windows media player and in the VLC player. Sound and imagery in both OK.

Crazy. If the VSP was corrupted, then making a new one should fix the issue. It doesn't. If somehow the corruption had extended to the clip itself, than playing it in other players should indicate that. It doesn't.

Davidk

[lata]

Hi David

I think the clip is muted, Applying audio edits, fades and levels can be done via the normal timelines or the sound mixer. Both methods will affect the clip.
If you have applied a mute from the edit timelines or Split Audio option this will not be seen when opening the Sound Mixer, however the wav form will disappear as your image.

If you drag the clip to the library, the clip will retain all edits
So if this clip is muted, starting a new project and using the library clip will still retain the mute.

Try this
Close the Sound Mixer
Double click the clip will open the options panel.
Set the % to 100
Make sure the mute icon is not activated.
De-select the fade ramps

[Davidk]

That previously has not worked, but I tried it again. Opened X5, clean timeline, inserted that one clip in the timeline, and checked the results:
- with clip selected, the options panel video tab had all those settings as the open default. And it played with audio.
- with project selected, the audio mix again showed no audio track and there was no sound when played.

Your comment about edits affected the source clip was interesting. I had always been told (by instructors in the use of VS) that edits cuts sound etc did not affect the source clip: all changes etc were in the vsp. Which made change easy to manage during edit (reverse, change, further add or delete items etc). And that any changes would only become 'fixed' when the project was rendered, thus making a new clip. Leaving the original clip as - well, original. Which all sounded eminently professional, and certainly that's the image Corel portrays for the product. That X5 does modify the clip really fails that 'test'.

So I tried something else. The JVC Everio camcorder I use records all this data in .mod files, which before doing anything else I backup, and then I render without change in any of the project preferences to an mpg file for editing etc. Apart from anything else, the .mpg files are smaller - not a lot, but smaller. The clip B that's affected was one such mpg file. I went back to the source .mod file and re-rendered it, and then put the result into X5 as in 1st para above. No sound issues at all: sound played great.

So its confirmed - somehow clip B has become contaminated by X5, specifically the sound has been muted in a way that X5 acts on and will not allow reversal, but that other players either don't see or recognise.

Clearly I can recover from this, but it would be good to know:
- what caused the effect, if possible
- how to fix it within X5, definitely
if it should happen again, without recourse to a backup source file.

Davidk

[Davidk]

Reviewing this, I noted an implication I should have made clear: whenever I said 'inserted the video file' I meant inserted directly from the copy stored within the windows file system (in the timeline, right click, insert video, when the "look in" panel pops up, navigate to the drive folder and file required and select open). I rarely use the gallery for this activity - generally only for the Corel items like closing images - in X5, see V10.

That's one of the reasons why X5 modifying the source file did not make a lot of sense - the program would have to go back to the file location on HDD and add something to it, all without the user seeing or doing anything. Nevertheless that's what the evidence is saying does happen.

Davidk

[canuck]

I do not believe that VS X5 modifies any source file whether audio or video. It can only happen if you somehow deliberately overwrite the original source file but even in that case I am sure you would receive a prompt.

[lata]

Hi David

Can you create a short project containing the b clip and any other short A and D clips.
View the project to make sure the audio problem exists.

Create a Smart Package, this will copy all files and VSP to a separate folder

Zip the folder and upload to maybe 4shared

We can then download the folder and view the files on our pc.

It does seem that this particular clip is not liked by Video Studio for one reason or another.
I doubt with all that has been said the we are going to find any thing different, but worth the effort.

-------------------
just to correct my last post, as you are now aware i was not referring to the files on the hard drive, they of course do not get altered, but the clips in the library, if they were muted before being added they would retain that mute.......

[Davidk]

Hi Trevor,

The archive is created. It's got a folder group with all the package contents (3 clips A B and C, and the vsp), and a separate file B_1 which is re-rendered clip B with sound that works in X5. You can use that to compare the clips B - and you will note that the one with no sound in X5 is about 1Mb larger than the re-rendered one. And the total in zipped form is about 134Mb.

So, please advise how and where to send it to you.

The clips deal with a snowcat ride at the top station on Mt Whistler in Canada in the spring of 2010.

One point on files. I understand your remarks about carrying edits into the gallery. Nevertheless in this issue all these clips were inserted into timelines from the windows disk store, so something has caused it to be modified/changed.

Davidk

[lata]

Hi David

If you add a video to the timeline in the normal manner, then edit that clip.
maybe trim the ends, change the audio levels or indeed mute the audio.
Now drag that clip to the library/gallery, you have a copy of that clip.
What you see in the library is a single thumbnail however it contains all edits applied earlier.
So starting a new project then dragging the clip to the timeline will show those edits.

It was just an option a scenario that could have happened, I guess I was reading between the lines, trying to explore all possibilities.